Cameron - friend of Muslim women?

Wish holiday makers would give north Wales the same respect

I do feel that all non-English-speaking immigrants should have a requirement to learn the language within a couple of years of arriving. If they can't speak the language, they can't go shopping, socialise or seek employment and they will be forced to mix only with their own. I've always made a point that when I go abroad, even on holiday, I master enough of the language to make myself clearly understood, whether it's to communicate with hotel and restaurant staff, deal with emergencies or shopping, but I try to learn enough to be able to pass the time of day, as I would in my own environment; it's only courtesy! I get so cross with the ignorant types who go abroad and feel that if we talk loudly enough and talk down to the inhabitants they'll accept our superiority!

In 2012 the NHS spent £64,000 a day on translators, or £23 million a year. That will be far more four years later. Put the cost of providing language classes against this.

I agree that Muslim women are not the only incomers who need a basic knowledge of the English language, and he would have been better not to mention them in particular. Perhaps he had done a sum on providing free classes for all and decided that it was just not financially possible? There has been enough comment on the probable cost of this proposal, I don't think free English classes for all would have been very well received - and how many teachers would be needed?

In the sixties posters were in some Windows - no blacks, no dogs, in the fifties - no Irish, no dogs , before world war 2 there was - no Jews

Yes, good posts thatbags. I agree we need to be able to challenge some Islamic ideology. I live in one of the areas you refer to JessM, where the practice of bringing in spouses from the villages the original mill workers came from in the 50's is well established. It may be one of what you call "a handful of areas" but that doesn't mean problems can simply be dismissed. I don't wish to be inflammatory but there is a larger than usual population of children with birth defects, it seems as a result of marriages between close relatives. There is definitely a problem with domestic abuse within closed communities of any kind. If you add to that the issue of very young women from rural areas arriving in cold, wet northern England where opportunities to learn the language, mid with the general population and find work are reducing by the day - there's a problem.
My own feeling is that there was more mixing in the 60's than there is now.

I do hope so thatbags! Good posts.

Change 'reformed' to challenged, though I think the religion Islam needs reformed and modernised as well.

I agree that the link between Muslim women who are not well integrated into wider British society and extreme Islamist ideas is not clear. Cameron pointed that out too: he said that there was "no causal connection". But I think I get where he's coming from on this: it's well known that educating women is what makes the most difference to changes in attitudes and ideas. I think there will be more such projects and 'challenges' to come.

I think Islamist ideology does need to be 'targeted' and reformed and I think that is what is at the bottom of this project, so I don't think directing some funds at helping Muslim women to integrate better is a bad idea. Whether this particular project does any good cannot be judged until it has run its course. I've no problem with healthy scepticism about its practicality. My comments have been really about pointing out what I think are incorrect interpretations of motive.

jess the calm down remark, positioned as it was alongside a link (two links really), was pointed at the media, not posters on this thread. Do calm down, dear ?

"Calm down dear! Calm down!" as the PM famously said to a female MP.
Thanks Bags but we're quite calm.
The problem is that politics is not logical however you (or I) wish it was. Yes more money for ESOP training for all people who want to improve their English is an excellent idea. Does it need to be targeted at Muslim women? I don't know. I also feel that the custom of some communities to go back to the ancestral areas and have arranged marriages is not helpful for integration here because the spouses have poor English (and maybe poor employability skills). This does not happen generally - only in a handful areas where there was an influx of immigrants from rural areas.

Here is a rational question:
At a time when public expenditure is being cut in many ways, is this a good way to spend money?
Is there any evidence that lack of English on the part of a mother is a contributing factor to radicalisation of English speaking children?
Is there any good evidence at all about how to combat radicalisation and ways of combatting it? (or is everyone guessing)
Is there evidence about the actual demand for such classes, at what levels and in what format?
I'm in favour of evidence-based public policy and expenditure, not PR based.

Tbh the chance of a woman, let alone a woman with children being deported because she can't speak English is about as likely as me going into space. We've all seen how difficult it is to deport far more likely candidates.

But please someone explain the logic of this part of DC's speech

"But if you're not able to speak English, you're not able to integrate, you may find, therefore, that you have challenges understanding what your identity is and you could be more susceptible to the extremist message that comes from Daesh."

Of all the reports of those who have gone to join Daesh, how many do you recall this could apply to?

I can't think of any. I was under the impression the people who chose to join Daesh could speak English.

Amen to that!

And here's the BBC's blurb as well for good measure. The aim of the proposal is good. Whether the implementation of the proposal works as intended will only be known in due course. People need to calm down.

Thank you, thatbags. That's one link that's certainly worth reading.

Here is the link again explaining the "hysterical" press reactions to the proposal that a minority of Muslim women be helped to learn some English in order to improve their integration into the society in which they are living their lives.

I not IO. Those two letters seem to want to cling together.

That is why IO was asking on another thread whether Cameron said their progress with the English language would impact on their staying here or could impact. durhamjen seems to think that the difference is not important. I believe that it is, to the interpretation of what was said and meant.

It is very easy to jump to a sensational interpretation. The way he put it was clumsy, but if the meaning behind it could be explained - or if it would be explained - then perhaps all the hot air may be seen to be premature.

This will, of course, be interpreted by some as a post praising Cameron to the skies and showing a shocking prejudice and slur on Muslim women!

I think you might be misthinking the two and a half years thing, dj.

This is from a link I posted earlier: "As the BBC's political correspondent Alex Forsyth said, the Government was absolutely not suggesting people could be deported if they failed to reach the required level, but that language skills would be one factor taken into account when deciding whether to extend a person's right to remain."
(my underlining)

My interpretation of that proviso (one factor [of several] taken into account) is different from what I think you are trying to imply.

Really, this whole discussion is about interpretations. Some of them seem very unreasonable interpretations to me.

Only 38,000 sounds quite a lot of women to me.

"I didn't know much but I would have become reasonably fluent if I'd stayed for years and years."

Cameron is giving them two and a half years, bags.

"The government’s figures seem to be correct for England, at least according to the 2011 census. The alternative 6% figure, from the Muslim Council of Britain, isn’t measuring the same thing.

Claim accurate according to new analysis of relatively old data.

There were around 846,000 Muslim women aged 16 or older living in England as of the 2011 census. Of these, almost exactly 190,000, or 22%, said that they could speak English “not well” (152,000) or “not at all” (38,000).

These 190,000 Muslim women are part of the 863,000 people in total who said they couldn’t speak English well or at all that year.

90,000 Muslim men, or 10%, said the same."

The latest data on whether Muslims speak good English or not; from the 2011 census. Note that only 38,000 could not speak English at all.

Cameron seems to be using a sledgehammer to crack a nut.
Or is there an ulterior motive?

Interpeter or staff member who spoke the same language as the family would be preferable.

English language classes for all immigrants is an excellent idea. Make them free and publicise widely.

Learning a foreign language is a challenge to most of us (though not the Dutch it seems, they seem able to learn endless languages then speak them more fluently than the inhabitants of those counties).

I agree about the dangers to families when mothers are isolated, I agree with those who make the point that many of the people known to have gone to Da'esh have been well educated Muslims, who were born in the UK. That does not diminish the need for all immigrants to learn he basics of the language of the county they chose as home.

I believe Cameron was right to name the issue of the oppression of women within some Muslim communities. I was a bit shocked by the language used by thatbags when she commented that at the moment the Islamic religion does seem to have more than a fair share of natters - but I don't disagree with that view thatbags.
The cost of interpreters and leaflets that are printed in many different languages is also important and needs review. As a sw I preferred to use an interpreter when interviewing mothers from the Muslim community. I never felt sure I was getting an accurate picture when the interpreter was her 13 year old son or daughter.

History is history. It was wrong to suppress people's own languages under British rule. That doesn't make it wrong now to want people living in Britain now to learn some English.

I would expect to learn the language of any country I went to work in. I did learn Thai and the Thai alphabet so I could read and write in their script while I was working there. I didn't know much but I would have become reasonably fluent if I'd stayed for years and years. I would have felt it not only polite but a duty as a resident alien.

Sweden also gives free lessons. My brother had them when he went to live with his girlfriend - and he had no job to go to either.

rosesarered until the government cut the funding, there was always an open ended commitment and that was before any talk of learning English as part of being allowed to stay here. What's changed? People's perception maybe?

Even if it's the increase in the number of immigrants, some people want it both ways i.e. Immigrants must learn English to stay here, but this is very hard if there's no courses available for them to do just that.

And what about my taxes? This was not part of the government's manifesto.

This shouldn't be a political issue.

Why delve back into the past? It has no bearing on immigrants to our country learning to speak English, Eloethan .It will help women immeasurably to speak our language and feel more confident.