Cameron - friend of Muslim women?

So that makes Cameron's proposal dismissable out of hand, does it?

Exactly absent, and not only that we have a history of expecting everyone else to learn our language but that we have actively prevented other countries from using their own languages in their own countries.

At the moment the Islamic religion does seem to have more than a fair share of nutters, absent, and it is Muslim women who seem to be the most legally oppressed in the world at large. On the basis of that it's not entirely unreasonable to suppose that there is support needed for Muslim women in Britain in particular.

wilmak, I agree entirely with your ideal scenario with regard to the availability of classes. You may be right about the political bone too. Time will tell.

Denmark gives free language lessons to those who want to live and work there. Just saying this because someone said no other country did it.

It may be an irony absent but the fact is that english is THE business language of the world ( thanks to the U.S.)Therefore if you only have one language, English is the one to have.

Well said absent,

richardhutton.wordpress.com/2016/01/18/the-right-minded-view-on-english-tests-for-migrant-women/

It makes sense that all immigrants in the UK should have a working knowledge of the English language. It can be difficult for women to attend classes for a variety of reasons so focusing on providing opportunities for all foreign women is probably a good idea. Specifying Muslim women, on the other hand, seems to be suggesting that a) they are a homogenous group, which is idiotic and b) they are different from other immigrants because of the religion.

The irony of the PM of a country whose natives are notorious worldwide for their unwillingness to speak any but their native tongue has not escaped me.

I guess that tax payers,as it's their money, would not want to fund an open ended committment for teaching foreign immigrants to speak English.By targeting Muslim women for this £20 mill ( agree it's not a lot) the government thinks this group needs it most.Other immigrants will have to pay for lessons at nightschool.

thatbags yes, he did say the last parliament made the cuts.

The bit I object to is 'more targeted'. The service should be available to all non-English speakers who come to live in the UK - as it was before - because they are all immigrants. It also helps with integration.

It shouldn't be a fund because I know only too well from my public sector days that funds can run out or not be renewed leaving people in need. Also, in my extensive experience of working in the public sector, setting up a fund is not the best way to make good use of money. It's heavy on paperwork for one thing and relies on someone knowing the best way to successfully apply for government funding. What tends to happen is, in an attempt to localise services, the money is not always well spent. In the early stages applications are much more likely to be successful than those made later on when money is running short - and the criteria are tightened. This happens at all levels and again, leaves people in need. A fund is particularly vulnerable to changes of government too.

I could go on, but basically basic adult education classes, including learning to speak English should be freely available everywhere. The responsibility used to lie with the local government education departments. In my day it was call Community Education and regulated with C&G qualified (minimum) tutors and volunteers, but I can imagine that not being the case with fund initiatives.

Most people whose first language is not English want to speak it before learning to read and write it. Learning English happens in stages. Immigrants often want to be in the company of English speakers, not other immigrants learning English. This is a big step towards integration, but there's no co-ordination of the provision of services here.

£20 million sounds a lot, but it's not really. This is a welcome step, but it's still a token gesture and I don't care how political this sounds, it's an attempt to keep voters on side. It's throwing them a bone (in my eyes).

Fines? It would have it be made law first surely ? Everyone must speak English

thatbags I am not at all sure either that all the community leaders would want to do this, but if the women are in families where the male is very awkward about what the women in the family do a woman could potentially be at risk of harm if she brings shame on the family by defying his wishes.

May be there, you put a duty on the men to ennsure that the wives etc attend such meetings with fines etc if they don't There really is no easy solution. Stop using interpreters maybe.

That lawyer and Yasmin Allibah Brown have a point.

I'm just not sure that non-integration is the cause of radicalisation. Is there any evidence? It's an easy thing to blame - but of course some of our home-grown terrorists have been converts and not from one of the traditional Muslim communities.
Cause of radicalisation might well be a combination of sophisticated on-line marketing by da-esh combined with teenaged cluelessness.
Language is such a tricky and emotive issue within families. My aunt's friend speaks fluent Mandarin and Cantonese as well as perfect English. Her English husband would not let her pass on the Chinese languages to their kids. Bet they wish he had. Also the grandmother who does not share a language with her grandkids. So men bullying wives over languages is not something confined to one ethnic group.

Badenkate I think you made the point well that you never fully integrated and spoke the language because you were working in an English speaking environment. Presumably if you had socialised with the local Swiss you would have become more fluent?

DS studied in English in Lausanne but socialised with the French speaking students and quickly became fluent. He later worked in Germany for a year, again in an English speaking environment but didn't like the job and learnt only enough German to get by. Since then he has lived in The Netherlands, where everyone seems to speak English and his work is in English. He loved NL from the very beginning and quickly became fluent, married a Dutch girl and now seems to be more Dutch than English.

If someone makes a permanent move to a country surely they should be expected to speak the language and integrate? It is different if it is only a temporary stay but I don't understand why they come if they don't want to be part of their chosen country?

Thanks Bags it is nice that someone doesn't decide for me which party I support. Especially as I don't really support any of them, like some bits or all and dislike other bits.

I, and many others, did comment on the Cologne sex assault.

A good idea is always a good idea, no matter who proposed it.

Eloethan can I just say that when I posted, I did stress the "some" Given the overall Muslim population of the world runs into billions, I do not regard them as a homogeneous mass and don't for one moment think all their women are under the thumb. On the contrary a Muslim mum who I was friends with from my children's schooldays, a Malaysian married to a Scot, I remember as a free spirit who spent most hot summer days in shorts, I could never imagine her being under anyone's thumb. Similarly I don't doubt that the women you taught, didn't fit that bill either. I really was not trying to imply that I think ALL Muslim women suffer at the hands of their menfolk. Nevertheless, it can hardly escape anyone's notice that there are women within SOME Muslim communities that do not enjoy the freedom that their fellow female citizens have and I imagine they are the ones that Cameron is trying to reach out to.

As far as "not feeling strongly enough to comment" the Cologne sexual assaults on German women really ought to provoke a reaction whatever one's political persuasion is and I felt that some of GN more prolific posters were conspicuous by their absence. On MN , the last time I looked on that issue it had run into 5 threads.

In reply to wilma's mention of cuts to ESOL funding: "The PM acknowledged cuts had been made to free language classes for immigrants during the last Parliament, but said the new £20m fund was "more targeted".
(from the Independent)

Interesting posts from nonnie, badenkate, and elegran. It is good to read posts that are to the point but not overtly politicised.

Those who like to categorise as left-wing or right-wing, please leave some room in the centre ground for those of us who sometimes agree with a so-called left-wing idea, sometimes a so-called right-wing one, and sometimes with ideas that strike us as problem solving approaches which, given a chance, might work. They also might not work but how would one know that without experimenting?

The basic problem is integration. As things stand many ethnic minorities live in the same area because it is easy to find shops where the assistants speak the same languages. There's doctors at the local health centre, teachers at the local schools who speak their language. Their children speak English and can act as interpreters. I live near Coventry which was multicultural when I moved there in 1975. None of this is new. I taught literacy, numeracy and ICT in adult education too and classes always included women whose first language wasn't English. They wanted to be integrated - at least as much as they wanted to be. Some wanted to be involved in their children's education. Some wanted to access further education themselves (two were doctors). Each had their own reasons for learning to speak English.

One of the key points is these were not ESOL classes. The ESOL classes where always oversubscribed and mainly in the evening. So these women joined other classes as a way to help them with their English.

This government removed the funding for most adult education. The demand for ESOL classes never went away, but most of the funding did. David Cameron is announcing funding for some educational purposes. It's not even that much money. Why single out Muslim women? Well, it's what the public want to hear isn't it?

If he wants immigrants to learn to speak English, it should be properly funded. Then those immigrants can help contribute to society in their own way. Some will work within their own communities, some outside, many will do both. But it should not be a political football.

As some are into criticism of the Muslim population I would like your opinion on the follow -

We have regiments of Gurkha's here, many lived in the married quarters , more came in so new houses were built in the town , they had to be together so a small estate was built. The husbands accompany the wives to every doctors appointment, when their babies are born the midwives accept it is their custom to have the entire family in the delivery room, mothers, mothers in law, close friends , parents evening at school both parents turn up but only the husband asks questions , the wives remain silent. The wives cover up in public even in summer .

There is another group of self segregated people to be criticised , just to give you a break from Muslims.

The difference is we accept them and their customs , we do not and never have asked them to or insisted they do , it works

^"Trusts spent £23.3 million pounds on translation services last year.
The NHS has spent £64.4 million on translation services in the last three financial years, a £9.4 million (17%) increase from 2007/8 – 2009/10.
This amount equates to a staggering £59k per day."^

The three financial years mentioned run from 2008 to 2011. The cost is probably higher now.

To read the whole report (very interesting, lots of detail about the responses by different Trusts and so on), search Google for nhs interpreter costs and select the PDF "Lost in translation"

A quote from it:-
"Is catering to non-native English speakers actually serving them in good stead, or are we perpetuating a system in which they are ostracized from the greater English-speaking community by dis-incentivizing them to learn English? Zia Haider Rahman, a Bangladeshi human rights lawyer in Tower Hamlets in the East End of London, says the provision of translation and interpretation is actually damaging to his community.

"They are doing harm because they are reinforcing the language barrier which separates this community from the rest of Britain. They are de-incentivising Bangladeshis from learning English,” says Mr. Rahman.

A woman who doesn’t speak a word of English despite having lived in Tower Hamlets for 22 years, brought up another important point - the direct oppression of some minority women by their family members through language isolation. She explained that many girls are brought over as wives from Bangladesh, her country of origin, and are isolated by their men who do not want them to integrate.

“Women are not being allowed to learn English because if they go out the husband fears they will be corrupted, that she will gain courage and she will learn how to operate in this country. There should be a law that requires these newcomers to learn English and that stops their families from preventing them learn English,” she says.

Sorry, I should have included a link to that. www.express.co.uk/scotland/585896/NHS-translation-bill-new-heights

gillybob a quick Google did not produce any current costs for the whole of the UK. I'll have another look to see whether I can find any more figures - there were some for a few years ago, which I shall post if I can't find any more recent.

However, for Scotland "The bill for paying interpreters has more than doubled in less than a decade, from £1.9million in 2006 to £4.9million in 2014.

Over the same period, the foreign-born population increased from 230,000 to 370,000, putting additional pressure on hospitals, GPs and other NHS services.

The national total, which also includes the cost of providing British Sign Language for deaf patients, works out at close to £14,000 per day."

So there could be a financial advantage to teaching the English language to incomers - as well as the advantage to them of being able to speak to shop-keepers, GPs and schoolteachers, and being able to answer the phone in their own home.

I was talking to DH about this earlier, and he said that when he was a student in Manchester in the 60s, his best friend was the child of a German Jewish couple who had left Germany just before the outbreak of WW2. Even after 30 years, his mother was not comfortable in English. I also remember when I was a teacher, it was quite common for Chinese parents to bring their children along as interpreters to meetings. This problem is not new, but that doesn't mean that ways should not be found to help. Living abroad myself, I found that it was quite difficult to integrate into Swiss society other than at a very superficial level - partly because I lived and worked in an English environment. Similarly these women will, naturally enough, look for help and support from women of their own culture. I went to German lessons, and to start I was much quicker than the others to understand structures, grammar etc BUT they soon passed me by because they were working in a Swiss environment and being immersed in the language all day. My sons, who went to school there, became fluent: my husband and I never would. This is always the way with 1st and 2nd generation immigrants.