Cameron - friend of Muslim women?

Petra its not "tree huggers" whoever they are, that is responsible for "the mess" as you put it. It's the British Empire. That's why we have large groups of people here who originate from former colonies.
And much more recently the Western politicians who have de-stabilised the Middle East by starting the Iraq war. (Imperialism in another guise - we know best and we think we've got a right to interfere)

Immigration has been a huge boon to us, on balance and has allowed the UK economy to grow since WW2 and continue to thrive.

If they don't get out and meet anyone other than their family, no-one knows whether they are content to stay in the house or not. If they had the words to use, they would have the choice to chat to neighbours or not.

Anya, how do you know some women do not want their family life to continue as it has for many generations ?

Are there no British men who dominate ? No British men who carry out sex attacks?

How do you know what goes on in the homes of all these Muslim families ?

This simply doesn't happen with other immigrant groups.

Annie Muslim women have been targeted because

1) certain Muslim wives are unable to discuss symptoms with their GPs, talk to their child's teacher etc. without the aid if an interpreter and
2) keeping their wives isolated is a deliberate tactic by certain Muslim men and being unable to speak the language enables them better to do this.

The majority of Muslim women I know speak English fluently, and function easily in our society. But of course they would because I wouldn't know the ones being kept isolated, in their homes, at the neck and call and every whim of their controlling husbands, would I?

durham I am one who does not think we should pay for English lessons for immigrants and I have a good reason, DS lived in 2 countries and learned their language from his friends and colleagues. In both cases his work environment was English so he didn't need to for work. He did so in order to integrate. I appreciate that writing a language may need formal instruction but not speaking it.

There are many people who come to the UK to live and who learn our language without depending upon the rest of us to pay for the tuition.

No, I am not hiding a 'dislike for Muslims', I do dislike one and like another very much, my dentist. He is probably the only Muslim dentist where I live so I could easily choose another one. We share quite a lot of family values.

"Little Englander" is it possible that you could stop using this derogatory racist expression Anniebach. You accuse others of disliking Muslims but how thinly you veil your dislike of the English, based on what a few that don't behave well, which ironically is what you accuse others of.

Wilma please don't link my response to not wishing to have immigration. You have completely misunderstood my response. I understand this thread to be about teaching English to immigrants and that is all. To extrapolate all that from my reply is either deliberately provocative or a lack of understanding.

I think that anyone who chooses to move to this country should integrate and that requires they learn our language. I do not think we should pay for it when there are so many more important issues to spend the money on. If someone has to work or pay for something they are far more likely to appreciate it. For example, I passed my driving test so easily because it was mainly sitting in traffic and I do not appreciate driving at all. DH took a few attempts and he appreciates it.

Jane10, because you did something everyone must do the same ? This is what you have just said , you lived and worked in a Muslim country, you tried hard to learn their language, you respected the culture there , a case of if I do it everyone must .

Anya, I am not against anyone learning to speak English, I am angry that Muslims have been singled out , not a squeak about people from Europe
Or India.
Cameron is using Muslim women as he used the Scots last year , and it disgusts me.

Unlike the majority here I do not expect everyone to do as I do. On a smaller scale I know what it's like to have the English don their little englander boots and start stamping over one's language and one's culture, what saddens me is posters who I know are nice people are not aware that they are being so unkind when it comes to Muslim women

Some spoke of historical racism, is last year dismissed as history ?

Some Muslim men dominate their wives , some British men batter hell out of theirs . Have you been into universities recently ? Seen how many Muslim students there are ? They have Muslim parents do they not?

"Some need to be honest, stop hiding their dislike of Muslims behind the pretence they want Muslim women to be helped"

It's too much of a blanket statement to say that people dislike Muslims per se, and it is tunnel visioned not to admit that there are a whole spate of issues that surround them that affect the way people react to them

I think most people know that not all Muslims are not all the same, a vast number are westernised and liberal and have had no problems in assimilating into our society. Others are more traditional, but again live their lives peacefully and don't present a problem. Nevertheless there is a section of Muslim society that we fear and another that make us angry. The latter would include those who are carried out abuses in places like Rotherham and lately what would seem a section of marauding men recently arrived in Europe and are treating European women in a disrespectful and appalling way. It hasn't helped that abuses towards women and children were hushed up for so long in the sexual abuse cases here and briefly in Germany/Sweden/Finland thus sacrificing the victims on the alter of political correctness. Into that mix we have the constant fear of random atrocities culminating in the Paris massacres. We know that something along those lines could well happen here, I have two children who work in London it's not irrational to fear a potential threat. Further to that we have sections of Muslims who wish to live apart who do not like our culture and seek to change it to something akin to the repressive draconian regime in Syria. It's not unnatural for British people to resent this behaviour and question why they wish to stay living in culture they profess to hate.

Any woman who wants to segregate herself from the rest of society can still do so if she chooses. That's another cultural advantage she'll have here: choice.

And asking what jane10 has just written is not askingpelple to remounce their own culture entirely. There will be lots of perfectly innocent but different cultural practices (food comes to mind, and various religious celebrations) that they will be perfectly free here to continue with. What immigrants should not be free to continue with is practices like FGM and the segregation of women. I'm going to stick my neck out and say our culture as regards those things is better and we should stand up for these better values. All cultural values are not equal, as cultural relativism seems to want to tell us.

It's because of the 'Hug a tree brigade' that we are in the state we're in with immigration.

I most certainly do not dislike Muslims. I have lived and worked in a Muslim country and yes, before you ask, I tried hard to learn the language and naturally respected the culture there.
I don't understand why some posters seem to want to argue no matter what is put forward.
The bottom line is that people who choose to live here should try to learn about and how to live within our culture.
This most basic of rules has been encapsulated perfectly in the very old phrase "When in Rome do as the Romans do."

I really don't understand why some people seem to think it's a bad thing for immigrants to be required to speak decent English.

Can any of the dissenters please explain why not.

Some need to be honest, stop hiding their dislike of Muslims behind the pretence they want Muslim women to be helped,

At least thatbags is honest, she thinks Muslim women in England should accept a new culture

Waiting for one to bring in they want Muslim women to become as English women - under the pretence of sisterhood

Durhamgirl, let Muslim women speak for themselves, we will if they speak English, are we supposed to learn the hundreds of different languages in this country now? It's about time this country got its own house in order and stop trying to solve the problems of the whole world. If people do not like it here, they are free to go where they will feel comfortable and do not have to try to fit in with the country that does welcome those in need, that house educate and feed them. I imagine if there was a poll, that would be the general feeling here. Fit in, try or feel free to go where you don't have to bother.

Another perspective. Very interesting. www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jan/22/david-cameron-muslim-women?CMP=twt_gu

Good idea, Finland. I hope it works in helping people from cultures with very different ideas about women to adapt to their new one.

Interesting link Elegran. Hope the water supply is back to normal soon.

Sorry Teaching migrants how to behave in Finland

It is 1.25, and I am only up because I was wakened by the thunder of the empty cold tank filling up. It was empty because apparently a burst water main was discovered in the area several hours ago, and the water turned off.

[[http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-35353310 Teaching migrants how to behave in Finland

Yes, thanks for that link durhamjen.

That article is one of the best things I've read on the subject of immigration in ages. It says all I want to say about the subject of this thread.

"It is important that politicians allow Muslim women to speak for themselves, in whichever language in their repertoire they choose to use.

They should ask them about their realities of belonging to Britain, about their dreams, hopes and ambitions; about how austerity is impacting upon them personally, as well as on the students they teach or the patients they treat, about their vision for a cohesive and progressive society and so on. Rather than claim to speaking for the Muslim woman, how about we let them speak for themselves?"

This is from the article above, written by a researcher at Goldsmith's.