How will you vote in the EU referendum?

(my post was in reply to roses and petra, of course)

Exactly. And the UK is the fourth biggest contributor to the EU coffers, yet gains a lot less than many other EU countries.

I agree with you, MargaretX. The UK only wants to be in Europe when it benefits them not when it benefits Europe.
I cringe when I hear some politicians talking down Europe. I am surprised that any EU countries want us to stay in - except, of course that their politicians are much more polite than ours.
Cameron has just mentioned shared interests between the UK and Poland in growing our economy. The only way Polish people can get more money is to move away from Poland.

Roses. You got in before me. Just what I was going to say.

nothing wrong with a government wanting the best deal for it's own country, a country is not a charity.

and in Germany I expect it's much the same, as Germany prepares to call the shots in almost everything to do with the EU.

I heard the interview on BBC World at One this lunchtime which I receive in Germany via satellite. It seems nothing is fixed yet and won't be fixed in time for a referendum. All the 28 countries have to discuss this and vote democratically on whether there can be a 4 year break, before new workers receive child allowances. Mr Cameron had not done his homework if he thought he just had to get a 'Yes' and then go home and get the referendum preparations started. It maybe a year before all 28 have voted on it and maybe some won't want the extra work and not accept it. True democracy takes time.
Most statistics say again and again that the workers of any particular nation pay more into the pot than the unemployed take out. I think that paying a child allowance was a major step forward for children and their mothers and can imagine how welcome this money is when it arrives in a family who are terribly poor. As far as I'm concerned they are welcome to it. I don't begrudge them a bit of extra money.
What people here miss is that from the UK there is never a word about doing something for the good of Europe, to keep us together in peace. it is always Britain, Britain Britain and what they want out of it.

Except that the EU is made up of lots of countries.
The chart just looks at EU and UK. It does not say how many Germans are in Spain or Ireland or vice versa.
That might be all that we are interested in, but it does not show EU migration as a whole.

Maggiemaybe. Thanks for pointing that out. Very interesting.

To clarify, there are other countries where more of our nationals claim there than the other way round, but I can't see that anyone will be losing sleep over, for instance, 85 claimants to 10 in Luxemburg, even though it is 8 times as many.

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/jan/19/-sp-thousands-britons-claim-benefits-eu is the link to the article, for those who might be interested.

Looking at the table showing the figures as a whole, I can see that it's really only Ireland and Germany where the numbers of UK nationals claiming there significantly exceed the numbers of their nationals claiming here. The Irish figure is intriguing (over 11,000 as opposed to fewer than 3,000 respectively). I'd be interested in knowing why this is if anyone can shed any light on it.

Those are interesting figures, granjura, and surprised me, for one. But the same article does go on to state that 65,000 EU nationals in all are claiming JSA in the UK, as opposed to our 30,000 claiming in the rest of the EU.

From the Guardian January 2015:

Unemployed Britons in Europe are drawing much more in benefits and allowances in the wealthier EU countries than their nationals are claiming in the UK, despite the British government’s arguments about migrants flocking in to the country to secure better welfare payments.

At least 30,000 British nationals are claiming unemployment benefit in countries around the EU, research by the Guardian has found, based on responses from 23 of the 27 other EU countries.

The research shows more than four times as many Britons obtain unemployment benefits in Germany as Germans do in the UK, while the number of jobless Britons receiving benefits in Ireland exceeds their Irish counterparts in the UK by a rate of five to one.

There are not only far more Britons drawing benefits in these countries than vice versa, but frequently the benefits elsewhere in Europe are much more generous than in the UK. A Briton in France receives more than three times as much as a jobless French person in the UK.

The research is being published after the German chancellor, Angela Merkel, visited London this month for talks with the prime minister, David Cameron, who is campaigning to “reform” EU freedom of movement as part of his attempt to rewrite the terms of Britain’s EU membership before putting the issue to a referendum in 2017, if he is still in power.

In Finland, Sweden, Denmark, Belgium, Luxembourg, Germany, Austria, France and Ireland the number of Britons banking unemployment cheques is almost three times as high as the nationals of those countries receiving parallel UK benefits – 23,011 Britons to 8,720 nationals of those nine countries in the UK.(end of quote)

Hope no-one will suggest that all incomers are immigrants, but Brits abroad are 'expats'.

www.migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/data-and-resources/maps/census-map-uk-born-residents-other-eu-countries-2011

Migration Observatory has lots of charts and maps. Most of them are 2011, because that is when the last census was in most EU countries.

www.migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/data-and-resources/charts/eu-born-migrants-living-uk-and-rest-eu-2011-eu-census

If the government does what it wants and stops collecting census information, it will be able to say what it wants and nobody will be able to challenge it, particularly if it also gets rid of FOI requests.

r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0LEVvYZnLNWnzEAk1gnnIlQ;_ylu=X3oDMTBzdWd2cWI5BGNvbG8DYmYxBHBvcwMxMAR2dGlkAwRzZWMDc3I-/RV=2/RE=1454640282/RO=10/RU=http%3a%2f%2fwww.theguardian.com%2fuk-news%2f2015%2fjan%2f19%2f-sp-thousands-britons-claim-benefits-eu/RK=0/RS=H43Mpmwqm1zoyjVmVf5_ReeDaMU-

This is a year old and compares EU migrants claiming in UK versus UK claimants un EU countries.

A report today said that if Cameron had got his four year deal four years ago, only 84,000 EU families would have been affected.
Fullfact tried to get the figures from the government last year, and had to go to the ombudsman as the DWP refused to give figures.

Liaise, do you not expect things to have changed in over forty years?
I can't believe that's a reason for voting to leave.

Leave. The current setup is not what I voted for back in the seventies.

Can you substantiate the 1000s and 1000s claim please? Other than the one case you know personally. Surely they are paying taxes where they live? Directly, e,g, income tax or indirectly, the local equivalent of VAT for instance. Also, how are you defining immigrants? Ex-pat workers last Bing abroad on a temporary basis? People claiming asylum? People who have emigrated? People who have retired abroad? People like yourself?

There are 1000s and 1000s of British immigrants claiming child and other benefits all over Europe- including in Switzerland- with children still back in UK. I know of one British woman who has been totally dependent on Invalidity benefits and in and out of institutions and hospitals, at a massive cost- and who has never ever worked here either. Geese and ganders.

Elegran thanks for that article. It is an interesting read, although I had trouble with the link, so here's an alternative in case anyone else has a problem too -

A New Deal for Europe

Eu workers claiming child benefit in the UK is not exactly 'breaking news' so I wonder why it has been dredged up from the archives right now?

Each EU country determines how it funds its own benefit and welfare system and the eligibility criteria to access it. Child benefit is not subject to EU ruling and "Wilma" has already provided further information on which other countries do pay child benefit under the same criteria as the UK. i.e. that the applicant is responsible for a child/ren and is paying national insurance in the UK.

I suspect that the reason Polish workers have been singled out is because they reflect the largest number living in the UK.

So, what do you say to the Polish Prime Minister who asks is it fair for Polish workers to contribute to the benefit system of British children through the tax and national insurance that they pay to the UK rather than to Poland?

Bear in mind that EU migrant workers are also contributing to the UK economy through the new businesses they open, payments of rents, board and lodgings, and all the other services and consumer products of the daily life wherever you live.

Well, you could say to the Polish Prime Ministers and all the other European Prime Ministers, don't encourage your workers to apply for work in the UK.

Except that the 1,500,000 EU labour migrants only represent about 5% of the UK labour force. So how do you think that the skills shortage right across the board, especially in engineering and construction will be met? European workers are not only employed in low level manual work or crop picking and processing on British farms and despite this there is still a skills shortage in the UK.

I don't think anyone is saying that the present EU arrangements are perfect, but let's reform from within rather than sniping from the outside.

An interesting article on A New Deal for Europe

Thomas Piketty advocates "a genuine social and democratic refounding of the eurozone . . . . Otherwise the agenda is going to be monopolized by the countries that have opted for national isolationism—the United Kingdom and Poland among them."

The 67 people who own as much wealth as half the world's population must be laughing their socks off seeing us all squabbling about things like this on the grounds that there are allegedly not enough resources to go round. The hate-filled propaganda that Badenkate talks about is there for a reason - to distract us from the real problem. Since 2008 the gap between rich and poor has widened enormously and nothing has been done to address it - in fact this government has actually added to the disparity.

I was unfortunate enough to watch the Ukip party political broadcast last night. If this descent into racist, hate-filled propaganda is what we have to look forward to, then I despair.

PS I should have said the rules changed in 2004 when the government introduced new immigration rules. The new rules meant that someone with the right to reside in the UK is able to claim child benefit. This excludes many migrants.

nightowl you are right about the rules for the payment of Child Benefit changing. At the moment the UK, Czech Republic, Germany, Latvia, and the Netherlands are the only countries that allow child benefit to be claimed for children who live in another EU state.

However, I disagree about whether or not the Polish postman paying UK taxes and National Insurance is irrelevant. The more tax payers we have, the greater income stream for the government to use to manage the country.

I'd rather have a Polish worker here paying tax and NI and sending Child Benefit back home, than that same Polish worker working back in Poland and of no benefit to the UK.