How will you vote in the EU referendum?

Wilma Stay away from those orange clubs
I would take it as a compliment to be a member of the Thread Police. You are in good company

I'm munching my way through a packet of orange Jacob's Clubs. I completely agree about how important this referendum is to the UK and read as much as I can, so I didn't like the implication I was shooting from the hip or that I had joined the Thread Police (not really sure what that is tbh). Despite being in favour of staying in the EU, I am still interested in why others want to leave. I am rambling on, sorry.

Wilma

We are all trying to get our heads around things as best we can. Talking, debating is good we need to hear all views. Some posts will just make us think to ourselves 'daft sod' others we may think 'hmm, has a point'.

As I have said previously my head says In but my heart says Out. If tempers flare or things get heated it's because this question is of such a huge significance to all of us . I'm having a Bicardi right now so should chill soon.

speki4eyes. I am playing Devils Advocate here.

You must know then that the Eurozone Inflation has fell back into negative territory, meaning European Central Bank stimulus measures are not working as well as hoped. Problems ahead for the Eurozone just as much as UK probably as the world economy relies so much on American and Chinas financial results.

Schengen has collapsed. The Dublin Agreement has collapsed. As somebody said 'There is more razor wire in the Europe now than during the Cold War'

Yes the pound dropped but haven't UK Bonds gone up?

Greece is plagued by financial troubles, unemployment runs at 25%, it's welfare state is in crisis, albeit for so many reasons not all can be attributed to the EU I agree.

I could go on but you get my drift. Both In and Out has issues and I just wish I had your belief that all is OK in the European Union, nothing, Nada zilch in the way of problems , or am I wrong to make that conclusion?

I have been well and truly chastised for my recent posts and will try to be more reasonable tomorrow. But I can't promise.

POGS when Jeremy Heywood issued the letter on 23rd, I thought the position was quite clear and as I would expect it to be, in particular the part that states

As set out in the Prime Minister’s letter it will not be appropriate or permissible for the Civil Service to support Ministers who oppose the Government’s official position by providing briefing or speech material on this matter. This includes access to official departmental papers, excepting papers that Ministers have previously seen on issues relating to the referendum question prior to the suspension of collective agreement. These rules will apply also to their special advisers.

In line with usual practice, Departments may check facts for such Ministers on request. And civil servants should continue to support such Ministers in undertaking all official government business in the usual way

Liz Truss seemed to confirm this situation on QT and later Philip Hammond also confirmed the government's position. I now accept that all ministers are members of the government and should have equal access to papers, but I don't see how the civil servants can be expected to provide briefing or speech material to both camps.

Bernard Jenkins has stated he's been approached by several ministers asking for advice as chairman of the Public Administration and Constitutional Affairs Committee on the matter. Jeremy Heywood will be appearing before the committee tomorrow to answer questions on the subject, so I'll wait for the outcome of that. It's certainly an interesting situation.

Reading these comments I just want to say that I am both ashamed and frightened that so many people of my generation are so utterly misinformed and easily persuaded by people who are merely looking at their own agendas. Boris Johnson has seriously damaged the UK economy with his barely disguised and extremely cynical pitch for the Conservative leadership. Do you Brexit believers honestly believe that getting out of the 'United States of Europe'. is going to have a positive effect on your lives? If so, you are living in Cloud Cuckoo Land! Leaving the EU can only do harm. Apart from everything else, Britain would still have to pay but would then have absolutely no voice in Brussels. When Boris Johnson made his statement last week, he didnt even know that the referendum result would be final!

And this lack of insight is not confined to the European side of the western world. Across the Atlantic, misogyny, racism, hatred and greed are manifested in a crazy Presidential candidate who despite all his awfulness is being believed, championed and supported by people of our generation. Adolf Hitler is alive and well and now sports a blond combover.

It truly is unbelievable that given our vast opportunities for enlightenment, education and analysis of the issues, the advocates of Brexit can see no further than the ends of their noses.

They should be doing their jobs as if they agree with Cameron and Osborne. If they are, they cannot be denied any papers to do with their jobs. If they are not, they should leave the cabinet.

Sounds as though they're in a cleft stick then if they're in the OUT camp. This is getting more like Yes, Prime Minister every minute!

No they should not leave the Cabinet. Cameron should have the guts to sack them!

It also says this

At the same time, civil servants are required to “accurately present the options and facts” and the rules explicitly state that civil servants must not ignore “inconvenient facts”.

Like you say, it will be interesting.

How can they be denied the right to carry out their ministerial role?
Whether they are in favour of or against remaining in the EU, that is nothing to do with their ministerial role.
The EU referendum should be nothing to do with the cabinet work. They should be doing their jobs as if they agree with Cameron and Osborne. If they are, they cannot be denied any papers to do with their jobs. If they are not, they should leave the cabinet.

Durhamjen

Re the Full Facts analysis.

It says something like the Civil Service will provide facts and figures to all Ministers if they ask for them.

The point that I have heard repeated on the news channels, during interviews and programs such as Daily Politics is this. Government Ministers will not be able to see official papers which in turn means they are being denied the ability to carry out their Ministerial Role and how can they ask for facts and figures on matters they have been denied access to.

I hope some of the Committee Room Session will be shown on the news channels tomorrow, it will be interesting to watch.

Wilma. At the risk of repeating my post yesterday.

I am confused so help me out with this 'non story' as I am obviously reading things differently and need to understand why.

From the Heywood Letter

'As set out in the Prime Ministers letter, IT WILL NOT be appropriate or permissible for the Civil Service to support Ministers who oppose the Governments official position by providing briefing or speech material on this matter. THIS INCLUDES ACCESS TO OFFICIAL DEPARTMENTAL PAPERS , excepting papers Ministers may have seen on matters relating to the referendum question prior to the 'SUSPENSION OF COLLECTIVE AGREEMENT'. These rules WILL apply to their advisors.

I believe tomorrow will be interesting as I believe Heywood has been called before the Public Administration and Constitutional Affairs committee over his handling of this matter and it's lack of impartiality concerning the rules concerning referendum.

I agree there is a 'non story' and that is the Daily Mail and if it was the first to print the story then they beat the others to it. Good journalism. I'm not sure they were however. My recollection of hearing this story in the first instance was on Sky and the BBC news . Not that who did what first has much bearing on the facts .

God help us. Another one has joined the Thread Police.

Jalima you didn't write a long post as your introduction to this thread. I don't expect everyone to have read the whole thread, but equally it makes me grumpy when someone makes no effort at all. I realise how unreasonable I sound.

It's hardly a 'non-story'. There's a whole thread about the subject on here (This Will Bring David Cameron Down) and as Jalima says, the government of the day includes both pro and anti EU campaigners.

fullfact.org/europe/25-februarys-bbc-question-time-factchecked/

The civil service serves the government of the day

Yes, I meant to add that in my post as it was something that had occurred to me.
A difficult distinction to make though, as some of the Brexit people are part of the government of the day, although rebellious.

I have read Jeremy Heywood's letter and as I said, this is a non-story. The civil service serves the government of the day. Data and information is available to both campaigns, but Brexit will have to find its own writers. I already explained why I mentioned the DM. I too welcome fresh opinions, but the operative word is 'fresh' and I don't appreciate being lectured (I'm not not referring to your posts).

It's quite clear Day6 has not bothered to read the rest of this thread,
Firstly, I apologise for not reading all this thread Wilma, I have been busy over the last few days, please excuse me
It is rather a long thread and I can never understand why a poster can be castigated for not reading the whole of a thread - perhaps they are just answering the OP.

I am, however, trying to read links, other information and find out the opinions of people I know, some of which have been quite surprising.

Yes, a good proportion of our exports are to the EU but that percentage is falling.

btw, My family is not all European.
Does that make a difference?

Yes, it does seem as though some posters are shooting from the hip because they disagree with another poster's views, without having checked the facts that they're supposedly relying on!

Details of the letter from Jeremy Heywood were reported in the Telegraph on February 23rd.

Wilma

I think you need to read the Jeremy Heywood letter for yourself. It is easy to find. Somebody please put a blasted link up to it .

As for Day 6 not reading past posts I'm sorry but you have not read the previous posts mentioning this precise point or you would have factual information regarding the Heywood Letter. Why did you mention the Daily Mail?

I thought Day 6 made interesting points and I for one want to hear what all GN's have to say. I might agree or not but I want to hear from a cross section and welcome ' fresh input' to be honest.

Even if I don't agree, I'm normally try respect the other poster's opinion, but it really racked me off when I read the first post from Day6. It was as if none of the previous 17 pages of posts counted for anything.

It was the Daily Mail that first ran the story about access to documentation. Later it was clarified that information was available to both campaigns on an equal basis, but neither campaigns would be allowed to have documents/reports prepared for them. In other words, it was a non-story. However, I admit I didn't know about today's story in the Guardian article and the subject does appear to have grown new legs.

I wasn't mud slinging, exasperated yes. I would have more respect for Day6 if they had engaged in the discussion, instead of making a lot of sweeping statements presented as facts, especially when some of those 'facts' have already been discussed at length.

Maybe I should take a break from this thread.

WilmaknicKersFit. Daily Mail! No. I got that info from the government ministers who are going to vote out, and back benchers who were asking questions in the house today.

The radio 4 piece by Editor of the Economist, posted by JessM earlier, gives an excellent alternative view to that of Day6 I think.

www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/feb/29/q-and-a-row-ministerial-access-to-eu-papers-brexit

From the Guardian, no less, confirming that (only) Brexit campaigners are being denied access to certain government documentation.