Is this an unfair VAT Tax?

Having now read the 'Bee in your Bonnet' thread on the Grandads Shed forum I'm sure you're right wilma <sigh>

So in the absence of universal agreement granddaughter beats a retreat rather than discuss the issue.

I'm now convinced it's James (Retired RAF Aircrew) aka Realgranddad because he's used my 'surname' (misspelt). Clearly he doesn't like our replies either way. Not that it matters what name he uses.

What's not to understand? Wilmaknickersfit 's post is perfectly straightforward
Somewhat frustrated at no response whatsoever from granddaughter to any of my points raised. So much for "discussion" <sigh>

granddaughter
wilma's posts are a great deal more logical and easy to understand than yours.

I have not been on a holiday abroad for at least fifteen years, so it is a purely theoretical question as far as I am concerned. Anyone who can afford a fifteen-day cruise is not really in need of my sympathy for the VAT. Perhaps they could think of the VAT on travel insurance as their tax contribution to the NHS for the treatment they had received for the condition that made them a higher risk for the business supplying the insurance?

Perhaps they could consider holidaying in this country.

Lets drop the subject, far too busy looking after three children this week. Not a clue about what knickerfit is on about.

Galen

I've given this some more thought and I realised that I always think of the VAT as part of the cost of anything. So I do think if you want to go on holiday here or abroad, the insurance is just part of the cost of the holiday and you can either afford it or not. End of story.

You can dazzle us with your pearls any time Galen

JaneA sorry but 15 day cruises are essential for my health. I get depressed without them and when else could I flaunt my pearls etc?

High travel insurance for an 80 year old who has had bypass surgery does not surprise me in the slightest. Try being a 60 year old who has had a transplant ! Saga and Age Uk in our xperience have proved to be expensive. Eurotunnel insure my friend's parents, both in their mid and late 80's for under £100 and I think that is an annual policy, not a "one trip".
The question however seems to be that the standard rate of VAT is unfair. I would ask Why?
If you subscribe to a method of taxation which relates to the value of the item, rather than the means of the purchaser, this is what you get. To have a sliding scale of VAT might be an answer, but would be a minefield.
If I had to "nominate" 5 items for lower or zero rating, I would prefer to see lower VAT on sanitary products, children's shoes (that may exist, don't know) tradesmen's bills for e.g. Roof repairs, heating and plumbing repairs , meals or snacks eaten "in" as opposed to takeaway food and drink, and public transport costs.

I still think this issue is a non starter and while you might expect members of Gransnet who are presumed to be "d'un certain âge" and may or may not be infirm to support the idea, it is interesting that there seems to be a strong majority against it.

15 day cruises are hardly essential for health, are they?
My MiL has managed to survive to the age of 94 without ever having been on one.
In fact she hasn't been on holiday for years, not because she can't afford one, but because she can't face long journeys of any sort.
There are many barriers to older people going on holiday - loss of a partner or friend to go with, infirmity, not being able to cope with extremes of heat or cold, not fancying unfamiliar food.
Paying 20%VAT( which is the standard rate, it isn't 'extra') would be a negligible factor.
In the example you cite granddaughter the VAT would probably be between 5 to 10% of the total cost - a small price to pay for those who can afford cruise holidays and as I said earlier, far less than the premium paid by families who have to take their holidays in the school holidays.

We were given an example of a gentleman aged 80 who had a cardiac bypass over 20 years ago and had chest infection in 2008 and no problem since.
He wanted to go on a 15 day cruise in June, the travel insurance with Age Uk £791.92 for an annual trip , single trip £579.72.

So vat around £100 to £130+

I think we need a few figures here.

1) What is the typical cost of that holiday abroad?

2) What is the typical cost of travel insurance for an older person with a history of an illness taking that holiday trip abroad?

3) What is 20% of that Travel Insurance? If VAT adds £100, does that mean that travel insurance is £500?

4) What is the percentage increase that the VAT adds to the whole cost of the holiday plus insurance plus VAT plus spending money?

5) How much more is that foreign holiday costing than an equivalent holiday spent in a resort in the UK where the NHS is at hand should any health problems arise?

Granddaughter you raised the issue for discussion. The issue is being discussed but you don't like the comments that have been made.
What I' m reading here is that people like us who might save a few pounds on TI, are saying that there are more important problems to deal with, higher priorities, greater needs.
That is far from 'bitchy and self-centered' (sic) but shows a degree of objectivity and fairness.

janeainsworth, don't be so pompous and offensive in your assumptions

I so agree we don't need bitchy comments like this..

I quiet understand the need as far the cost of insurance and have no issues what so ever about that need and costs involved.

The complaints were simply about the extra heavy VAT charge of 20% , suggestions that consideration that the Gov could consider lower rates were suggested for All sick and disabled for add on premiums and relief on those age related 75 + extra charges, thus my reason for mentioning. I was quoting other people's views.

I well understand some people take the view if you cannot afford the amount don't go abroad. I tried to highlight not all travel for a holiday, but in any case, health benefits accrue from taking a holiday. Years ago I broke my leg at Pontins so I know accidents can happen home or abroad, then insurance is of considerable benefit.

What has really got to me is why so many grans get bitchy and make accusations that are hurtful. It does not encourage anybody to raise a subject on our website that might be controversial but should be aired. Perhaps, that is a subject for another day "Are we getting more bitchy and self centered ?"

Exactly POGS all insurance premiums are calculated on an actuarial basis and there is a reason why young drivers' car insurance premiums are sky high and older travellers' insurance more than for younger people.
However, if granddaughter is merely talking about the rate of VAT applied, then this raises a whole new question. I believe "essentials " were initially intended to be zero rated , does that still apply to children's clothing? I have a feeling it once did.
But foreign travel for the retired? Unlikely.
Oh wouldn't it be luvverly but many many elderly people still wouldn't be able to afford that holiday or cruise or be well or mobile enough to go abroad. Let's address the basic issues like poverty among the elderly first!

Hmmm.

I have asked that question on the Grandads Shed Forum.

Insurance companies are not a charity they are a business. If you have a house on a cliff you will pay more than if you have a house on the flat, even then there are so many equations that have to be taken into account but common sense tells you if you are more at risk of making a claim then your premium will be higher, sods law isn't it.

I have to pay extra for my holiday insurance and yes it is a b-----y annoyance but I understand why. I have to agree with other posts and age does not come into it .

Excellent post Alea. Actually I still think Granddaughter is Realgranddad posting under a different ID.

The discussion yesterday highlighted those who were able to take holiday breaks were the least likely to need hospital and care needs by keeping active. Public Health England highlighted the considerable saving on NHS and Council expenditure, so there is another side to the coin on this subject.

Granddaughter as jane says VAT is unfair in that the rich pay the same as the poor. But surely the real point is the high cost of insurance for older people, even those relatively fit and healthy. You only need to have one health condition to be ineligible to take advantage of cheaper online insurance and then the premium goes up. So someone paying insurance in the four figure price range is not going to be particularly fit and healthy. Their conditions may be under control, but they do have those conditions.

Off the top of my head I can think of 5 friends or relatives who have needed medical treatment when they were abroad on holiday, 2 of them for serious conditions not previously diagnosed. All of them are over 65.

So as things stand, VAT is relative to the purchase and I definitely don't think older people should get any further breaks from government. Not when others are struggling with the changes in legislation that make it harder for them to pay the bills, let alone afford a holiday.

Yesterday I was at a Health meeting where they were talking of the huge benefit of holidays for older people. There was considerable criticism of the high cost of travel insurance for over 70's & 80's

No mention here of the young disabled, or chronically sick

I think this is a non- issue or at best one so far down the list of priorities for any benefits to be negligible.
1) at a time when free bus passes themselves often a lifeline for many elderly people especially if they have had to give up driving or may not be able to afford to run a car, are under threat due to council cuts, is it not rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic to fuss about VAT on travel insurance?
2) I imagine any savings would be negligible, but given that tax revenue has to come from somewhere where do you suggest raising the lost revenue?
3) day centres for the elderly, for those in stroke or cardiac rehab, for those with dementia , are desperately needed and usually few and far between. How can a cut in VAT on foreign holiday insurance be justified?
4) I have every sympathy with older parents and grandparents whose families live on the other side of the world, but it is the cost of the fare and the insurance, not the VAT rate which influences the affordability or otherwise of travel.
No, I am highly suspicious that this topic has been raised to enlist support for a campaign which would be very harmful to the image of the elderly, already pilloried in some areas as spongers, living the life of Reilly while their children struggle to get a foot on the housing ladder.
There have already been muttering a about "inducements"(?) for the elderly to downsize and free up family homes for the next generation.
Playing Devil's advocate??

Janeainsworth, don't be so pompous and offensive in your assumptions.

I deliberately mentioned all disabled and sick, which covers ALL age groups, the reference to older people was covered in the early threads, they were relative to the comments made at a seniors Forum where the subject was aired. Not my words but those of people present.

It amazes me how nit picking you can be on what is suppose to be a subject of helping those sick and disabled people less fortunate than the abled body.

Your latter sentence is unworthy of any fair minded individual.

Good night

My 40 year-old daughter would willingly pay that extra element of tax on TI if ever she thought she'd be well enough to have a holiday!
Many older people are able to afford well-earned holidays but the younger disabled less so. They too would have to find the extra demanded to cover existing conditions.
This would not be an issue high on my priority list.