How will you vote in the EU referendum? (Thread 2)

Of course the Soviet Union had something to do with the liberation of Western Europe! By the time of the D day landings, the Wehrmacht had almost been destroyed by the Red Army. About 90% of German military deaths were on the Eastern Front, which was a huge area. The Soviet Union lost more soldiers in WW2 than all other Allies together. D Day had been planned for years, but by the time it happened, Germany was already losing.

The so-called 'Cold War' started even before WW2. The Americans and British knew of Stalin's ambitions, but needed to keep him onside. They couldn't have won the war without the Soviet Union.

Who says I want to change history? I know what happened.

"Wonder what the reaction would be if it had been a wicked Tory having this kind of revelation?!!!!!! Nothing short of remarkable!!"

Not like you to criticise something niggly says, POGS.

I'm not sure what I'm kidding about? The historical facts are perfectly clear and can be verified anywhere. You can't change history however much you may want to.

Well, It's all a long time ago now, and I guess there were faults on all sides. But for certain the USSR had nothing to do with the liberation of Western Europe, any more than Western troops were involved with pushing the Germans out of Russia.

niggly, Are you kidding? If the Soviet Union hadn't been at war with Germany, there would have been no Eastern Front with its devastating effect on German morale. Germany would have been able to concentrate all its forces on attacking/defending Western Europe.

Britain was originally invited to join the ECC, but declined.and refused to sign the Treaty of Rome. It wasn't until Britain saw its economy stagnating compared with those of France and Germany that it decided it wanted to join. In the immediate post-war era, it was almost inconceivable to think that Germany and France could ever co-operate.

England and France had been rivals for European dominance for centuries and De Gaulle was a French nationalist, who saw Britain as being too cosy with the United States. Churchill had used De Gaulle during WW2 just as much as De Gaulle had used British protection.

No Russia had no part in the liberation of France or any western countries, they weren't anywhere near, coming in from the East as far as Berlin where they met up with American troops. Within a very short time the cold war started and the rest is history.

become!!

When I say 'side' I mean in the geographical sense (to avoid any confusion).

Although of course, as events unfolded it did becomes 'sides' in a political sense.

And I always thought Russia too was part of the defeat of Germany
Yes, but I don't think it was part of the liberation of France. Russian troops marched across Germany and Germany was 'squeezed' between the Russians on the eastern side and the Western Allies on the other.

It was ab, but not the liberation of France, which is what I was referring to.

No particular reason, just not quite sure how to describe him, soldier politician, diplomat leader of the Free French, man seemed to cover it all. Nothing derogatory intended.

And I always thought Russia too was part of the defeat of Germany

Why did you put 'man' in inverted commas, niggly?

De Gaulle was a latter day Louis 1Vth! the glory of France was all. France's easy capitulation in 1940 was a very bitter pill for him to swallow! sanctuary in England, the old enemy, was an anathema to him, he and Churchill hated each other! The arrogant old 'man' even insisted on marching at the head of the parade though Paris after the end of the war implying that he liberated France!! No, the British and the Americans did. Apparently he considered that we had had an island mentality and would therefore not make good Europeans, and had to be kept out of any union between European countries! Mind you, could be he had a point?!!

De Gaulle was just an 'old'(!) misery guts, with one huge chip on his shoulder about Britain
I have never understood why, as we gave the old goat sanctuary during the war and the Free French movement was based in Britain during WW2 - and we liberated France - that he was so against Britain.

Hugh Gaitskill 1962:
Gaitskell alienated some of his supporters by his apparent opposition to British membership of the European Economic Community. In a speech to the party conference in October 1962, Gaitskell claimed that Britain's participation in a Federal Europe would mean "the end of Britain as an independent European state, the end of a thousand years of history!" He added: "You may say, all right! Let it end! But, my goodness, it's a decision that needs a little care and thought

Ha! 'Reform' is just a pipe-dream. It would never be allowed to happen - certainly not at the UK's instigation!

The point about Corbyns speech is that it reflects what most people feel, so most people would give the EU two toots rather than a trumpet fan fare. They are not so naive as to think all is well, they don't, but rather than throw in the towel they have the spine to stay in realising that together is better, and reform is to be negotiated.

So Jeremy has finally bestirred himself to say that the “warts and all” EU remains a crucial pillar of the international order for good socialists. Jez's speech was really more of a penny-whistle toot than a trumpet call though wasn't it?

There is a school of thought that Jeremy being tepid on Europe (he used to be rabidly anti) will do the remain campaign more good than ardent pro-Europeans care to admit, because most British voters probably feel similarly ambivalent.

At least most of the people I know can't make up their minds.

Wow Granny2016, your post is certainly food for thought, and think about it I will. When we went into the Common Market, I was so certain that it was the right thing to do and that De Gaulle was just an 'old'(!) misery guts, with one huge chip on his shoulder about Britain. Now forty years along the line, all that confidence has evaporated, and I am very very uncertain what is the best way forward for the UK, now and in the years to come. Nobody has convinced me one way or the other as there seem pro's and cons on both sides, but which is correct?!!

Soon after leaving college,I voted NOT to join the common market as we had good trading links around the world.Charles De Gaulle initially vetoed the UK joining the EU as he felt our island mentality would not work within Europe.I have never felt as if I belong to the EU.
At 66 and self-employed,I work full time and often for companies within the European Union.My income is very average and may reduce significantly, but I am a 100% OUT voter.
It breaks my heart to see how the EU has developed and the impact it has had.
Very little publicity has been given to TTIP,a proposed trade agreement between the EU and USA.
This may negatively affect the NHS.
We will be importing food from the USA which produces a vast amount of GM crops and whose food production does not carry the same restrictions as our own.
If you are thinking of voting YES,please at least google TTIP and read about it.
Too little publicity is being given to it.It isn,t mentioned at all in the government booklet.
I have posted my booklet back to the Conservative party this morning.
I also voted Conservative at the last election as I saw it as the only possibility of the UK being given a referendum on the EU.
It is a big leap,but I feel that the UK will thrive.
I feel that to stay in the EU would be like jumping into a black hole.

Conversation?!! Preaching to the converted more like. Mind you I think they're all doing that, maybe that why a lot of us view the whole exercise with cynicism.

Oh shit now the Wicked Tories have come back, at least it's honest I suppose.

www.theguardian.com/politics/2009/aug/16/tory-mps-back-nhs-dismantling

Michael Gove being one of them.

evolvepolitics.com/tory-mp-dominic-raab-advocates-privatising-nhs-daily-politics-government-held-ransom/

www.peoplesnhs.org/stand-northamptonshire/
Peter Bone

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/conservative/6035182/Health-row-Tory-Daniel-Hannan-Why-my-critics-are-wrong-about-the-NHS.html

All want the NHS dismantling.

Exactly, Anniebach. At least Corbyn can see that. It's a shame others can't.

A conversation, nigglie?
Of course it is. That's what they are all doing, conversing with us about their reasons for staying in or leaving the EU.

Boris changed his stance, quite surprising and annoying Cameron. I count him as a wicked Tory.