How will you vote in the EU referendum? (Thread 2)

Go on! Be a devil! Let's here what you'd like to enforce! No idea? well, what a surprise!

It would be interesting to know. It's an absolute joke (if it weren't so serious) that the Remain message is negative. Negativity is a hallmark of the leave brigade.

Did anyone else hear what Ken Clarke said in the House of Commons yesterday? He suggested that people who did not understand how world trade worked should attend a course to find out. I was half asleep as it was 'Today in Parliament' (Radio 4 ) 11-30 pm and we are an hour ahead. Obviously had Gove, Boris et al in mind.

I heard him Welshwife, I do like Ken Clarke

I see Marine le Pen is considering coming to the UK to support Brexit - blimey with friends like that".................

Actually, negativity is the hallmark of the remain brigade, as in ' we are all doomed if we leave!' By comparison, the leave camp are sunny and bright.

Oh Please!!! The outers have no idea of what they will actually do or what the EU countries are likely to do - it is all built on what they hope will happen and what they hope the rest of the world will do - mainly pie in the sky stuff. When asked direct questions they faff around with no substance answers. The rest of the world will not do as Gove wants and agree to free trade and things made to UK standards - which may be very good - but unless they are compliant with the standards of each country he wishes to trade with the goods will not be allowed in. Where is the sense in that?

Well said Roses Can someone in the remain camp explain what is negative in our view ( leave) when we say: we can do this, we don't need (You) to tell us how to run our country. To me, the negative is: I need you to tell me what to do.

Absolute rubbish to say that Remain are being negative but Leave are not. Where it suits them they both are and very annoying it is.

Most of the EU laws and regulations UK agreed to and supported in every way so unlikely to change any of that.
We used to be great country with a lot of manufacturing and exporting going on - made in Great Britain was a really good stamp to have on anything - my parents bought nothing unless it had the stamp. Sadly we have very little manufacturing industries left compared to 30-40 years ago and the manufacturing going on is on a much smaller scale. Where we do have a lot of exports is with the service industries and financial - done from London and many peopl do like this but it is a fact. If these banks and other places relocate to the EU mainland or Ireland we will not be able to fill the gap left quickly. CEO s of various companies have now come out saying they will be thinking of moving away from UK - Ford is one of the latest I have seen - they have a lot of capacity already in other EU countries so would find it easy to move most of the rest. Be a disaster if they move the research and development base in Dunton! Siemen's Boss was saying the other evening it would be very difficult to trade from UK. Do you really think these people are just scaremongering and if the outers win will then say 'only joking - of course we will remain' .
I think that within the matter of a few years we will have a much bigger percentage of people out of work or they will have all migrated to wherever will accept them. We are now an importer of many things we used to make but also of food. We need things to trade and also countries to trade with. It is always very difficult to turn the clock back and return to how things were previously. Those countries we traded with before we joined the EU have moved on and have their own agreements - they may no longer wish to trade with us and why should they? There will be import tax in many cases and to be fair many places will have us by the short and curlys as we will need their trade more than they need ours.

I know we have all critised our leaders from whichever party but just look at those who are leading the out campaign - people with wild ideas many of which are failed ideas - I am no fan at all of DC or GO but they are the men with access to the numbers etc and so is Tony Blair although his involvement was a few years ago.
We have a system in EU which is not perfect but works most of the time and we are in a position of being able to change things from within - outside we will have stormy waters and probably a lifeboat with a hole in it! The actual fact that UK is having a referendum has woken the EU ministers up to the fact that things need to change and Junker has already said this - a modified Europe would do us all well and if the referendum brings about this change I only hope that we will still be within it to reap the benefits.

Sorry for the long post but got a bit carried away!

rose

No grumps allowed today, it's the Queens Birthday and it has been decreed that all shall be sunny and bright, have a

Petra, do you know what negative means?
"We don't need you..." is negative, isn't it?
Sorry if I've told you what negative means.

links.e.globalcitizen.org/ctt?kn=4&ms=MjUyOTcyMzES1&r=MTIzNzM3MzY2OTMyS0&b=0&j=NzgzMjQwNjk5S0&mt=1&rt=0

A TED talk from Global Citizens.
Why we should stay part of a bigger organisation.
"Those who look beyong their borders are on the right side of history."
Doesn't mention the EU, but some of you will understand what I mean.

I can't see why any EU countries should cut us any favourable deals if we leave. if we vote to leave they will tend to feel pretty miffed. Some of the governments more than miffed. They will seek to protect their own economies and maybe also seek some revenge on us for weakening the Union. (and they would have to re-design the flag!)
One of the things we should be concerned about is "energy security" - which is a euphemism for the fact that we are not going to be self-sufficient for gas and electricity any time soon.
While we are part of the EU block we have some clout when it comes to buying Russian gas - and gas from other EU countries. We will be in a difficult position if we are trying to strike deals outside the EU. And given the fact that our coal fired stations are closing, the Tories are back-pedalling on renewable electricity, the much-needed new nuclear plants are still on the drawing board (with no final agreements about price for electricity) and the fact that we have so little capacity for gas storage, we're going to be very vulnerable in the not-so-distant future.
70% of gas will be imported by 2020
www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/putins-gas-threat-what-happens-if-russia-cuts-the-gas-to-europe-10074294.html
Things to look forward to in the next decade: power cuts.

I hadn't got as far as thinking about fuel security, but you are right jess

Just listening to BBC R4. The President of the US is backing the "NO" campaign despite being told not to interfere in Brit politics. He stated that the cemeteries of Europe are filled with reasons why Americans can vote on the EU. I didn't hear the interviewer reminding him that the US didn't declare any war until 7 December 1941 - literally being forced into it.

On Questiontime yesterday evening Paddy Ashdown said that they only leader who wanted UK to leave was Putin as it would weaken the EU. I think Putin is a nasty piece of work and would prefer a series of smaller countries around him than a big block working together. One of the reasons for allowing some Eastern European countries to join was to help protect them against being annexed again.

People were glibly saying last night how in the UK it could be worse and hard for a 'few years' but then would get better. Presumably these were people who had never had a few bad years themselves - you only need a few bad months to really cause you problems for a long long time afterwards - what will a few bad years initially do to many families? Some will never recover and be paying the price for the rest of their lives with poorer paid work and most likely not owning their own home again.

Your point about energy is a very good one Jess. UK usage of gas etc would be much smaller than the combined use across all Europe and so give less bargaining power. When several people get together with the buying of their CH oil they do get a better rate - and this is just individuals buying their winter fuel.

It seems to be that the 'outer camp' just keep on about Sovereignty and laws etc - some of the changes we have needed to make have been an improvement for this country. To a great extent it is Sovereignty which caused so many of the wars of the last few centuries - wanting to extend borders and land - surely better an alliance which we can help to control and change than be seen as an area ripe for a take over - and now we would have much less ability to defend our Sovereign shores!

I think it is neck and neck at the moment, and I am getting really worried about what we face if we vote leave.

With almost the entire world advising us to remain, how can the outers be so confident that all will be well? I would be happier if I was clear of the type of UK we would have in the future, but it is totally foggy.

I still can't decide.

My heart says 'leave' my head says 'stay'

Very good point about energy, Jess.
I thought Obama's article in the Telegraph was powerful and inspiring.
I have yet to hear a single, coherent, realistic argument from the Brexiters; it seems to me that their arguments are still all based on nostalgia and wishful thinking.
As for Dominic Cummings' performance at the Treasury Committee. Words fail me (and that doesn't often happen).

I am the same Whitewave - really worried as to what will happen if we leave - the most used word by the Brexit camp is Scaremongering. So many knowledgeable people and institutions have voiced worries if we leave and given likely prognosis - we would believe what a doctor told us so why not believe these people? The years of sorting everything out will be a sort of limbo for everyone and a business who is unsure will then move out rather than wait and see. It will be no good ten years down the line saying we should have listened and stayed.
No one on the Brexit side has a clear idea of what will really happen - they still keep on about the money paid to Europe and Paddy Ashdown last night showed how I think it was the Dept of National Statistics had worked the money out and and the figure was nothing like as big as Nigel et al say. What he was also saying was that even with the remaining money we do pay we save more on the tariffs we then do not pay to trade.

If we leave and it all goes pear shaped, what then? There will be no EU to back us, or anyone come to that. We may be the 5th biggest economy but a minnow compared to the EU clout, and I honestly can't see them throwing us a lifeline.

The risk so huge. Of course the EU is not everything we want, but staying and being determined to reform, which many of the EU citizens want makes so much more sense to me.

On a positive note. I was talking to my DS, who listed all the environmental changes that we signed up to with the EU and the result. This together with extra money has improved our countryside unrecognisably.
I can't remember them all but I have outlined what I do remember
Before the EU we were known as the dirty man of Europe. Many of our rivers were so bad there was little life in them including the Thames. Now as a result of EU legislation our river are clean and team with life. Otters thrive where once they were non-existent as does "ratty"
Sights of scientific interest have extra protection., as does many of our important wildlife habitats.
Our air quality is improving although we have some way to go on this.
Our farmers are given money to provide wildlife habitats on their land.
Our sea quality has like our rivers improved beyond all recognition, and we have the blue flag system in place.
A word of warning though. DS then went on to list those attempts by various vested interests in the UK to destroy by development, or looser legislation covering areas like pollution. They have governmental ears. What stands between their interests and our pride and enjoyment in our wildlife is the EU.

Sites! I am never sure whether to blame the iPad or my crappy spelling

If we vote leave then all that environmental protection will be automatically scrapped. To think that it will be replaced by the same or better is living in fantasy land. The many vested interests will line up including big land owners to get government ear. Bearing in mind that this government has a belief in small state, and as little governmental interference as possible it doesn't take much imagination to understand that many of the EU legislation restricting destruction of habitat will simply never be reintroduced, that together with looser control on air and water quality will materially effect our country.