How will you vote in the EU referendum? (Thread 2)

www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2016/apr/22/obama-cameron-press-conference-eu-uk-uks-power-politics-live

Like Obama said, we have now heard it from the president himself. If we leave the EU, any renegotiations will be behind those of the EU. No special deals there.
Good.

I think there are are far more nations than the Dutch who appreciate Britain - Greece for one - or at least the Greek Islands. This feeling that people /countries is I think perceived rather than actual. De Galle was in many ways a very strange man and that speech he made was one of the biggest faux pas for years. The French and the rest of the then EU were annoyed about it. Despite our conquering places and colonising them which did not always turn out well for people we have always assisted those in trouble. However since joining the EU we have been more than a bit whingy and want to change everything we don't have control over. We don't like having more control even if what we have is good and bringing benefits. It is this wish for Sovereignty. We should instead be looking for strong Alliances with our neighbours and greater cooperation on defence as well as other things.
I find the idea of a form of jealousy of Germany being at the bottom of the reluctance of some people to remain within Europe to be offensive. After the war, as the aggressor, maybe Germany should have been paying more in recompense to the people they had attacked. This was not asked for and in fact the opposite happened. Maybe this is why Angela Merkel is so helpful with what she gives and does for other countries- for many years she lived the wrong side of the wall and saw how invasion was for many people. The reunification of Germany was a great thing - it must have been a terrible 30 odd years for all those families who found themselves suddenly in an alien space.
There has been so much infighting within Europe with lots of wars over the centuries and the more united the continent is the less likely this is to happen again. Surely this is the sort of legacy we should aim for - there are enough other wars -and battles going on around the world - usually over some form of sovereignty or land grabbing without us increasing the, hopefully small, possibility of another European one.
Because we are an Island and all of us are of mixed race due to invasion and we are more protective and also to some extent aggressive towards other countries, but it is a mindset and needs to now expand to looking at a much wider horizons and being friendly and cooperative with our neighbours.

I like the way Obama appears to think before he speaks. Cameron ought to do that in PMQs.

Ladbrokes has said that Brexit has gone down to 29% from 34%.
90% of the money taken in over the last 48 hours is on staying in.
Tegan will know about all these odds. I've never been in a betting shop in my life.
But I have a feeling Ladbrokes will get it right.

fullfact.org/europe/limiting-eu-human-rights-law/

Lots more where this came from, Day6.
Please read it; your prejudices will be challenged.

Watching Obama's speech at the moment. I prefer his ideas to yours.

DJ - " If we come out, we will lose our human rights, and the EU oversight of our benefit system."

Where on earth are you getting THAT from DJ ?????

We are not a backward, uncivilised country! We have always valued human rights in the UK. We won't suddenly become unenlightened and return to the values of 70, or 80 years ago in terms of discrimination etc. We have always been a nation famed for our tolerance and fair play. A nation not roped to the EU isn't suddenly going to regress and suppress the electorate! What a stupid notion! We'll enjoy the rights we've always had. Pol Pot stylee government isn't going to replace European influence!

If we DO lose the ruling European body that tells the UK that foreign, criminal hate-preachers on the streets of London have human rights and can not be deported for anti-British sentiment I'd breath a huge sigh of relief. What sort of stranglehold is that? It's cost us millions in Legal Aid payments so haters of the British way of life can remain here and take all that is good about the UK whilst wanting to kill our troops and law enforcers. THAT sort of human rights legislation- unlike anything we've ever known - we have had to stomach in recent years and it has worked against us. There is resentment in many quarters that the European Court of Human Rights seems to be an advocate of all things un-British.

Our justice system and belief in fair play isn't going to disappear if we leave the EU but we will regain the right, hopefully, to mete out justice without that palaver of running it by people in Brussels/Strasbourg unelected by UK citizens.

More scare-mongering. When will we all turn into frogs and be whisked away by Martians? Soon after we leave the EU? Thought so.

Terribull, lots of settled EU citizens are denied the vote because they might vote a certain way.
They are allowed to vote in local elections as they pay council tax and are on the electoral roll, but not allowed to vote in general elections or the referendum unless they have given up their primary nationality and paid to be British.

I've just been reading this.

lizziecornish.over-blog.com/2016/04/the-heartbreak-of-a-pensionless-pensioner.html

It's not about the EU, but it made me wonder how someone who has been treated like this will vote.
If we come out, we will lose our human rights, and the EU oversight of our benefit system. The Tory idea of a bill of rights will not replace them.
However, the fact that the government can ignore what the EU says about benefits shows that it doesn't matter on that count.

She has no liking for Tories on either side of the referendum. However, the important Labour MPs are on the remain side.
I imagine she would hate to vote with Cameron and Osborne, but her hatred for IDS seems greater.

British Expats: Say Yes 2 Europe - Remain In the EU
Closed group

This is a Facebook group which has a lot of info within the pages - I think you need to join to be able to see all but does give a lot of info and all sorts of discussions have been going on -I could not do a direct link as it is a closed group.

TB I did NOT say that people shouldn't be allowed to vote because they might have an island mentality, I just remarked that old people are more likely to think this way and vote accordingly - at no time have I said they shouldn't be allowed to vote.

What I said was that this is how deGaulle viewed us, and I thought that he probably had a point. I then went on to say that it was more likely these days to apply to older people, not all older people and I would never presume you to be one of them dj! I worked for years in social services retiring in 2009, which involved every aspect of care for the elderly, some of whom were very wary of anything 'foreign', particularly the carer or doctor sent in to assist them! Sometimes it was hard to explain that you cannot talk about people in a derogatory way, in fact it is against the law - half the time they didn't care!!!!

NN - I can assure you that my hair is firmly on my head.

To suggest that any group of people should forego their right to a vote because of a supposition such as "they have an island mentality" is undemocratic, and at what age would this cut off point be exercised 60, 65, 70 and above. It doesn't make sense. However, GN, having a certain age demographic would be a good place to road test such a theory, so perhaps there should be a thread "Cut Off Point For Older Voters" where that idea could be mooted. However, say for example, someone else suggested, another group of people be excluded from the democratic process for arguments sake let say, "settled Poles" be denied a vote because they COULD vote in a certain way, on a supposition that some would want to bring extended family over, I think and rightly so, that might be met with derision. As you say, everyone is entitled to an opinion, but if that opinion is biased or unreasonable, then possibly there will be a strong reaction but frankly that is a fairly common occurrence on GN.

I do not think I have an island mentality, and I presume I am one of the older generation.

I was brought up with people from Africa, North America and Europe living in my parents' house.

Interesting link, Jess.
If they can spend that much on links to Norway and Iceland, why can they not spend it on geothermal and wave energy research in this country?

Most younger people study and work with people from around the world and with people whose parents were immigrants from the Commonwealth.
Yes I was struck by the comment that Putin was the only world leader who liked the idea of the UK leaving EU. Probably because he thinks the EU will be weakened.
A pipeline from Iceland would bring electricity generated by thermal energy 1200k undersea... no deal yet. It's an awful long way so the electricity would have to be very cheap to justify the investment in a massive interconnecter that long.
There is one planned to/from Norway, which is significantly nearer.
www.theguardian.com/business/2015/mar/26/uk-and-norway-to-build-worlds-longest-undersea-energy-interconnector
Note that the clean carbon free energy referred to by the minister is nuclear.

All right TB, keep your hair on; Gg is allowed an opinion, and so am I without you sounding off in that aggressive way. No one is asking you to agree, but we should all be able to express a view without being shouted down.

"Cut off for voting" - I wouldn't want to live your idea of society GG. Talk about sweeping statement "island mentality" try applying a blanket remark to any other demographic and see how it goes down, like a bucket of sick I imagine

It's predicted that a higher proportion of older voters will actually turn out to cast their vote, if younger people don't do so in equal numbers then they can hardly complain about the outcome. We all have a right to the democratic process and to deny anyone that right, because possibly you don't agree with how you think they might vote, is not only patronising but outrageous.

I think you're right Gg and the island mentality is more applicable to older/old(!) people, and while I don't think we should have an age cut off point for the referendum, I think it is true that older people are less enamoured of the EU than the young probably partly for that reason, which of course isn't a particularly valid one!!! I'm not sure that the intervention of the american president is particularly helpful. What's it got to do with you comes to mind!!

What difference do you think that would make, Gracesgran?

Cut off for voting ? that is discrimination. Older people are quite capable of making rational decisions.

I think many of the older members of the population have the "island mentality" niggly but I am not at all sure the majority of the young do - or those who have benefited from not seeing it that way and have worked and lived abroad.

I have just been reading another forum - for Pensioners - and I am really beginning to think we should have a cut off age for voting in referenda. It won't happen of course.

I don't think that this sovereignty feeling is anything to do with the aftermath of the war. We have a long almost ancient history of viewing 'foreigners' with suspicion! It's that island mentality that deGaulle was so fond of expounding! Yes Germany and Nazi invaded countries did flourish thanks to enormous amounts of aid which was rightly pumped in to help rebuild these shattered nations. We, on the other hand , were left with a huge bill for reparation which we finally paid off to the USA in, I think, 2006 or thereabouts! A Common Market is an excellent, and sensible idea, but integration? Hmm, I'm not so sure about that, particularly as, apart from the Dutch, most countries have a healthy dislike for Britain.

It's for electricity.

www.politicshome.com/news/uk/politics/news/74119/tory-mps-paid-themselves-thousands-brexit-campaign-pot

Those who want out, you're voting for/with these two.

I remember Cameron going to Iceland not so long ago and talking about the longest pipeline ever from Iceland to the UK for thermal energy, I think it was.

Never heard any more. Has anybody else?
That's the problem with Cameron and Osborne; everything has to be longest, biggest, best in the world.
So why not stay in the EU, where we have more clout than we would have as a small island off the coast of Europe?

Going on from my post a lot of those notices can be put up in the countryside and seaside as well as on flood defence etc.

We are an odd nation, whilst most of our elite die to get accepted by what was known as gentlemens clubs when it comes to clubs where other members are perhaps not quite us, we simply don't seem to be able to act as team members.

I think this sovereignty feeling is actually the old hurt feelings that began after the war when Germany boomed and became a really great country again. The British can't stomach this. All the other countries which were invaded by Nazi Germany are now freindly and cooperative, its 70+ years ago after all.
All I can say when I see pictures of Boris posturizing with Ian Botham is Grow UP!
Surely being British is more than that. The UK is not even able to run its NHS nor its schools properly. How is it going to manage everything on its own with nobody to help clearing up run down areas like parts of Wales and Cornwall.
Where I live we often see notices stating that a bridge or a cycle track was built with EU funding. I have never seen any notices like that in the UK however much the UK has received.
Vote to stay IN. Its warmer and safer inside!