Why do the SNP oppose new Sunday trading in England and Wales?

My DD works in retail. She works on average 40 hours per week. She does more than her fair share of Sundays but it annoys her that a Sunday shift is too short to warrant the travel costs (quite a long journey) and that a Sunday shift means she has to work longer shifts during the week to make up the hours.

Gillybob
Gillybob
I agree.

That's precisely what I meant when I spoke of the disparity for tourist areas such York and Edinburgh. The economical truth is England has been scuppered of having the same opportunity for commerce as Scotland. Whether we as individuals agree with or want Sunday Trading/longer opening hours is only part of a wider debate and not the point.

My nephew has just finished working for a pub chain in Devon. He said that the only thing tourists can do when the shops shut is go to the pub or back to their B&B's , caravans, hotels. Who wants that on a holiday, we've all been there done that and got the t.shirt. It's fine to say well shops are open , it's just the larger stores that are penalised. The problem is the smaller shops don't get the customers until the larger shops open . Likewise when they close the trade dries up. This may work on cold , wet days but during the summer they are both missing the chance to do what they are there for, sale goods and keep the economy going.

It's not as though shops were being 'forced' to open . It was levelling a playing field for the shops in England and Wales to compete with on line shopping, which is 24/7 and nobody mentions people working on Sundays there do they!, and having the same opportunity as they do in Scotland.

I fail to see why this is not agreeable this should happen. Reverse the situation and the vote is for Scotland to close early and only be allowed to open in line with England and stand back and watch the fuse wire being lit. That would not happen though as it is nothing to do with England is it.

It is not about "shop,shop,shop" though is it Anya ?

It is about having the choice to shop or the choice to work and not being dictated to by a group of MP's who seem to think its fine for them but not for us. Talk about "don't do as I do, do as I say" !

As nigglynellie said there are people in retail who would choose to work on a Sunday but thanks to the SNP (and others) they are being prevented from doing so.

Well, at the end of the day we can shop on line and get deliverys on Sunday any time we please, so jo soap public isn't particularly affected one way or the other. But, there are, believe it or not, some people working in retail who would like the opportunity to work weekday hours on Sunday, people without this cosy family unit, some people whose commitments would allow for Sunday working but can't work due to other issues during the week, some who would like the extra money!!! and other reasons too, but hey ho, who cares about them. This holier than thou attitude by people it doesn't evenly remotely affect, particularly people whose business it is not, is hypocritical spurious and downright selfish.

Junior doctors are unhappy about the new contract because it will affect their right to enhanced pay on Saturday....

If all retail employees are to be made to work Sundays without a guarantee of extra money that's OK.........?

Remembering the wages that Junior doctors command and that most retail workers are on, or close to, minimum wages.

Just so we can shop, shop, shop ....

My grammar gets worse . that's what happens when you try and do accounts and Gransnet at the same time

I would have thought the "Sunday opening" issues were equally in line with Economic Development and Employment legislation. The deliberate curtailing of hours for England surely having a detrimental effect on Economic Development for England (only).

The vote was not about employment law though , it was about the ability for some shops to open longer on Sundays in England and Wales as they do in Scotland.

Should Scotland be able to declare itself frackfree?

www.fossilfree.scot/

Is it not the same thing?
Many people think it should not.

If employment laws are not devolved, then the SNP has the right to vote on employment laws.

Perhaps I got this wrong, but I understood Nicola Sturgeon to say that Scottish MPs would not be voting in things that didn't affect Scotland?! So why did they vote in this instance? The terms of employment and rates of pay wherever anyone lives in the UK will be, or should be, clearly reflected within the terms of their contract, so why the need for the SNP to be so concerned about any of this, except to cause mischief?! If the boot was on the other foot at Holyrood, hypothetical I know, I think the reaction would be exactly the same! rightly so too.

Thanx to Pogs and Elegran for their respectful, measured contributions to this debate.

I think there is a general misunderstanding of the powers that have been given to the devolved parliaments: Here is a list: which applies only to Scotland - the Welsh & NI powers are different.

List of devolved and reserved powers

Devolved Powers
Health
Education
Local Government
Law
Social Work and Housing
Economic Development and Transport
The Environment
Agriculture, Forestry and Fishing
Sport and the Arts

Reserved Powers
The constitution
Defence and National Security
Foreign Policy
Immigration
UK fiscal and monetary policy
Employment Legislation
Social Security
Transport and safety regulation
Nuclear energy
Broadcasting

Note that employment legislation is not devolved (and much of it currently comes from the EU).

Although the lists are of a similar length most of the really important powers are reserved to Westminster. Few issues can be fully resolved within only one category e.g. under existing devolved powers (Local Government) the SG was able to impose a moratorium on giving planning consent for Fracking and UGE whilst extensive research into the economic /environmental issues is undertaken. However, whilst under severe pressure from the SNP membership, Green Party, Environmental Groups and the public in the areas where licences to frack have already been issued by the Westminster Parliament, the SG are unable to legislate an outright ban on the processes as they do not have power over Energy Policies nor Safety Regulation. Although the SG as a whole is firmly against hosting nuclear weapons, that is a matter reserved to Westminster where even if all 59 Scottish MPs combine to vote against hosting WMD they are easily outvoted in the House of Commons.

It has been estimated that only 20% of legislation affecting Scotland comes via the Scottish Parliament - 80% from either Westminster or the EU.

As a 'Scottish granny' I have a great deal of respect for those who stand by their beliefs and are prepared to put forward a rational arguement and listen to the other side of the debate.

I am/was one of those people keen for Scotland to remain in the UK Durhamjen. I based my thinking around "better together".

What I (perhaps wrongly) assumed was that the laws effecting only England would be decided by English politicians, likewise, Wales, Scotland, NI etc.

What I did not expect to see (although with the power of hindsight perhaps it was inevitable) was for the SNP to deliberately (mis)use their power to vote against decisions that do not effect them or the people of Scotland in any way shape or form.

One of the differences between Sunday workers in England and those in Scotland is that Scottish workers get enhanced pay for working on a Sunday and many English workers don't. My friend worked for Waterstones for about 10 years and the weekend rotas became more and more complicated and demanding. They altered the working week to start on a Sunday so that it was classified as a "normal" day and there was certainly no extra pay. She didn't have a clear weekend off for years and was constantly bullied by management if she did ask for time off for a special occasion. I know they are a pretty awful firm to work for but I guess others are probably the same and have no regard for their staff on welfare issues.

Yes, niggly. words to that effect. You remembered it as "until all others have been tried" and he quoted it as "other forms that have been tried from time to time". That was the only difference (and I only know that because I googled it, as it sounded interesting)

Sorry, varian I saw your name among the posts and replies, and posted too quickly. Substitute Teacher for varian in my post at 12:23:41.

Since youve asked, no I'm not, but I do have a Scottish (a born and bred highland) DH, hence the many visits as relations liked to see us particularly when DC were young, now they take themselves! Is this relevant?!
I did say the quotation was only, 'words to that effect'.

Pogs The mudthrowing in the run-up to the Independence referendum wasn't one-sided, either. It never is when opinion is strongly divided.

Some of my friends voted for Scottish independence. No thugs among them. Some of them voted Tory. No thugs, bloated plutocrats, or ex-Bullingdon members there either.

I did NOTmake the post you find distasteful - that was Teacher.

My post was a constructive suggestion about how the UK might be better governed and I am not disagreeing with POGs points - I understand only too well how unfair the present system is and how intractable the "West Lothian question has been" - that's why I've proposed a better system.

Perhaps there could be certain days in the week when the whole of Westminster meets to discuss matters which apply to the whole of the UK, and other days when only MPs for English constituencies were present to discuss purely English legislation, or English and Welsh MPs for legislation for England and Wales, if it covered both those countries, or whatever was suitable for the bills under consideration? Surely it wouldn't be rocket science to organise it?

Durhamjen

Yes I wanted Scotland to stay in the Union. I still do.

However I see the difference between the function of the United Kingdom , Westminster MP's and what their role in a democratically elected Parliament provides and the National, Devolved Parliaments, MP's and what their role in a democratically elected Parliament provide.

The problem arises when the two different Parliamentary functions are conflated and there is no acknowledgement of the differences. One has jurisdiction for all 4 of the Union countries the others have jurisdiction over 1, their own. This issue is so elematary to some yet to others it is not.

I have to beg the question of those who do not believe that England should have the same right as the other 3 countries to decide on laws of a devolved nature what is it you don't agree with?. I fail to understand the anti feeling toward England having parity with Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.?

I do not consider the SNP MP's bully boys. I have heard some damn good debates and I think there has actually surfaced a tad more respect between parties than was once thought impossible.

"Churchill said it (House of Commons, 11 November 1947)—but he was quoting an unknown predecessor. From Churchill by Himself, page 574:"

"Many forms of Government have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.…" richardlangworth.com/worst-form-of-government

Are you a Scottish gran niggly?

I voted to stay in the Union, but I too found varians post distasteful. How on earth can you claim that "The SNP is a hard left bunch of thugs whose only purpose is to gain and keep power and represent their own interests." ?

That is exactly the kind of blanket statement that is made often on these threads by sworn opponents of the Tory party, and is just as much of an insult to those who are campaigning for the cause that they believe is the right one for their country as a similar slur would be on those of the left in the opposition who are campaigning for their cause. If such statements were made about the Green or the Labour party, there would be cries of unfair!

So the majority of the Scottish nation who voted for these "thugs" must also be thugs? and the majority of the United Kingdom who voted for the Tories in the last election must have friends in the Bullingdon club?

Step back to democracy, and see different political agendas as political strategies, not an illustration of personal thuggery.