Why do the SNP oppose new Sunday trading in England and Wales?

Yes, at first, till the SNP showed their true colours then I think you'll agree, regretfully the argument swung the other way, till by the referendum a lot of previously pro union people were begging them to go! I think you'll also find that a lot of Scottish grans feel exactly the same, and it was to them that this apology was directed.

I'd vote for that varian

Teacher I take great exception to your comment. Could you please substantiate your statement with some evidence of Thuggery, Force, etc.

I am beginning to think that in the run up to the Scottish Elections, Gransnet has been invaded by some new posters (without profiles) with the sole purpose of bad mouthing the SNP. I remember that we had some good and sensible debate on Gransnet in the run-up to the Scottish Referendum, with differing opinions expressed, questions asked and answered, without resort to swearing and gratuitous insults. Gransnet has changed and not for the better.

Varian

Varian

The problem is Westminster is a decision making tool for MP's of the United Kingdom and subsequent laws for the United Kingdom.

Holyrood , Stormont , Welsh Assembly have another layer of devolved MP's England does not. Hence the ruddy problem of disparity between the 4 countries that make up the Union will never go away until England has the same rights as the Welsh, Scottish and Northern Ireland people. Yes we have just obtained the English Votes for English Laws but this is obviously never going to work as intended or hoped for. This latest vote is proof it will be doomed to failure unless there is a common respect between the parties that a law for England and Wales should be seen as a Devolved Vote. In other words fairness and respect would apply from those who have the good fortune of having Devolved Parliaments not to interfere in another country's decision making. If that cannot happen then the West Lothian Question remains an issue and causes division, obviously.

To put it another way. If a vote is required that determines the law in one of the 4 UK countries the others should be gracious enough to accept they have the right to do so. If English MP's were to vote to say Scotland will conform to the trading laws in England there would quite rightly be hell to pay. That won't nor could it happen though as Scotland has the privilege of making that decision for itself.

If there is a law that applies to all 4 countries then that jurisdiction belongs to the Westminster MP's and democracy ensures that each of the 4 countries elect their representatives, MP's, to represent them. Whether that be the SNP, Respect , Sinn Fein, or others they have been elected by a democratic vote and have the right to take their place. Nobody argues that point but there is a big problem with only 3 out of the 4 countries that make up the Union having the privilege of Devolved Parliaments and democratically elected MP's.

All those who are complaining about the SNP voting against the government, are you the ones who wanted to keep Scotland inthe UK?

500 MPs - not 500PMs - we'd still just have one of them!

Although I am in favour of devolution, I think we have too many politicians.

If we could start again I would have say, 500 PMs elected by PR, who would spend three days a week debating UK matters in the House of Commons and then Scottish, Welsh and NI members would spend two days a week in Edinburgh, Cardiff or Belfast deciding devolved matters. During these two days the House of Commons would become an English parliament where England only matters were discussed. If in time some English matters were devolved to English regions then the principle could be extended there.

I know this is not likely to happen but I think it would have been a great improvement on the present system - not only fairer to all voters but it would solve the infamous "West Lothian question"

No point in apologising to Scottish grannies if you call their democratically elected representatives names.

Or do you perhaps think the 2015 election which swept them to power last year was 'unfair' or in some way 'undemocratic'?

Perhaps you could discuss the issue without all this emotion and invective getting in the way?

Bullyboy tactics are of course the downside of democracy. 'It is the worst form of government until all others have been tried', or words to that effect, by Churchill. The SNP are hell bent on making as much trouble for the government no matter what they really feel. It's a sorry state of affairs if hatred for another political party overrides everything else. Some democracy!! I'm sorry Scottish grans, they're not your fault, but the bad feeling this will inevitably generate is sad, let's put it that way.

I don't think the issue is proportional representation more to do with the 'age old' West Lothian Question .

We have had many discussions on The West Lothian Question and Proportional Representation in the past. The English have the new English Votes for English Laws and maybe that is a possible way forward for a vote concerning England only and the Sunday Trading Hours.. Obviously Wales, Northern Ireland and Scotland have their Devolved Parliaments so they already have the good fortune of deciding for themselves , alone. That is where the annoyance comes in for some people , the SNP hypocrisy of refusing other countries the same right to trade as they do. Yes, it is the 'Do as I say'. not 'Do as I do' syndrome. The wages issue was to my mind a red herring as they know in Scotland there is a variance in pay structures for Sunday working.

Taking the Sunday Trading issue out of the equation there is another issue that surfaces and this vote cements opinions, thoughts, whether they be rational or not , whether they be factual or not. That opinion is the SNP's declared inherent dislike of the Conservatives would see them vote against the government at every opportunity, as they said they would during the Scotland Referendum, nobody failed to hear that message loud and clear, whilst maintaining the right to make their own decisions through Holyrood. I have to say the cheering and whooping from Labour and the SNP when the vote came back and the looks between the two parties certainly made an impression.

I would like to stress my opinion is purely related to the SNP not the people of Scotland who will have their own thoughts and voices to either agree with the SNP or not as the case maybe.

The SNP is a hard left bunch of thugs whose only purpose is to gain and keep power and represent their own interests. They are a very useful reminder of how the Labour Party operated in the 1970's under Militant and how Corbyn's Momentum is operating now. Entryism combined with force and shock tactics are the order of the day.

OK -.i give up! We don't live in a democracy!!

What happened to English Votes for English Laws?

I absolutely agree.

No Anya, you are wrong again. The public have never been offered a referendum on PR. There was a referendum on AV, which is not a proportional system. I voted against that, as did many other supporters of PR.

But the public rejected PR several years ago. And that again was democracy at work.

Not saying I like it....but that's how it works.

Anya this is not democracy at work. We will only have a democracy when we have a fair voting system. The number of MPs each party has should reflect the number of votes they got in the last election.

The irony is that the SNP have twice as many seats as they should have in Westminster because of the distortion of first-past-the-post but the system used to elect the Scottish parliament, whilst not perfectly proportional is fairer. The SNP are utter hypocrites.

We need proportional representation if we are ever to become a democracy.

I have to say I find it hard to understand some of the comments and reactions on this thread.

Firstly, this is democracy at work, like it or not.

Secondly, this Sunday Trading issue was not as simple as it may appear, and I believe that the briefing documents which ought to have been available for MPs to scrutinise were only eventually produced on the day of the debate according to a debate I saw last night.

And, I don't understand this national obsession with shopping 24/7. Many shops are open all day Sundat anyway. It's only certain shops (depending on the square footage, which is why Tesco Expresses etc. are open longer hours) - which which are limited to 6 hours on a Sunday.

Unfortunately, Sunday is just another day of the week now.

Workers in any job in Scotland only get premium rates if that has been put in their contract by their employer. Wage rates have nothing to do with the Scottish government, although hours of trading are their responsibility.

Many of the large retailers have reduced or removed premium rates uk-wide, so that they can afford to pay the new minimum living wage. (That is the reason they give.)

In Tesco, of which I have personal experience, as gillybob wanted, most UK workers are paid 1.5x their hourly rate for Sunday work. Some long-serving workers are still entitled to 2x their hourly rate, however Tesco has recently told them that this right is to be removed, after payment of a lump sum as compensation.
Many Tesco workers and, seemingly, the union Usdaw believe that if Sunday trading hours are extended in England and Wales, the large retailers will do away with premium rates altogether in order to afford the increased number of hours.

That would affect far more people in England and Wales than in Scotland, simply because of the relative population figures.

Labour are as bad, they only voted for spite, not conviction or money. They're both as pathetic as each other. In another life I worked in social care for the elderly and often worked on Sunday, Easter Sunday and Christmas day, as they needed care every day, with no financial enhancement. If you feel religiously that strongly, you can always go to early service or evensong. It's got little to do with money or religion, just spite and point scoring. The sooner they all buzz off the better.

...a lot of workers here no longer get paid premium rates and new contracts are cutting back on Sunday rates so their argument doesn't stand, but I don't think they realise that.'

That's interesting, Granny46, although it shows the SNP in an even worse light!

I'm Scottish and please don't think everyone in Scotland is behind the SNP. I don't understand why they voted against trading on Sunday in England as a lot of workers here no longer get paid premium rates and new contracts are cutting back on Sunday rates so their argument doesn't stand, but I don't think they realise that. It's a typical case of politicians not knowing what goes on under their noses, which is true north and south of the border. The majority of us voted to stay in the union in a one off referendum and no one is in the mood to change that. The next EU referendum will cause even more problems than we have at present.

or 'Do as I Say and Not as I Do'

www.theguardian.com/politics/2012/jan/17/what-is-west-lothian-question