Why do the SNP oppose new Sunday trading in England and Wales?

OK, I get that good employment laws help workers, but I think the trades unions, and particularly the mineworkers' union, should get credit for forcing government to enact laws for better working conditions, rather than government directly. It was through them that the Labour Party acted back when it was a Labour Party.

By the way, they are being taken to court by junior doctors for trying to get rid of workers rights and making the NHS unsafe.

www.theguardian.com/society/2016/mar/13/junior-doctors-contract-to-be-challenged-in-courts

I did not say that, did I, bags?
I said interference, not by whom.
Tory governments are doing their darndest to get rid of all workers rights, and bring back serfdom.

dj, are you now seriously saying that intereference from a Tory government gets workers' rights? And there was me thinking you thought Tory governments were wreckers of workers' rights as well as quite a lot of other good things in society.

?

Indeed!

Tam Dalyell - there was a politician! Could do with more like him.

Ever since Scottish Labour MP Tam Dalyell asked the West Lothian Question there has been contention.The English Votes for English Laws aspect of this is complicated.

Why was it not put forward under EVEL.

The Speakers 'Personal Certification Decision' confirmed that he would not have certified the provision as English and Welsh only. This is because of the way the government drafted it's Bill , see Clause 33.. The Bill contained 2 seperate proposals. 1. Devolving Sunday Regulation for England and Wales. 2 .Strengthen workers rights to opt out of Sunday working, a proposal that would include Scotland. Under EVEL procedures The Speaker has no option than to 'certify' whole clauses that apply to England , or England and Wales , not separate provisions within a single clause.! It is true to say the government could have it's proposals as 2 different 'clauses' . This could have seen the proposal to devolve Sunday opening hours pass through EVEL.

However the contentious issue is this. It might not have avoided defeat 'at the hands of the SNP'. Why? Because one of the central features of EVEL is that it relies upon a 'DOBLE VETO' in the Commons Legislative Process. Clauses of a Bill have to be Certified as relating to England, England and Wales only. MP's from England and Wales NOW have the opportunity to veto those Clauses at a Legislative Grand Committee Stage. BUT and it's a big BUT legislative proposals supported by English and Welsh MP's STILL REQUIRE APPROVAL BY UK WIDE MP's. DOUBLE VETO. Scotland's SNP MP's in Westminster will always have influence over EVEL.

So at the end of the day if the government want to go forward to allow shoppers in England and Wales the opportunity to visit a garden center or buy their pants from Marks and Spencers at York during the same opening times as shoppers in Edinburgh either put the Proposal in a single Clause and hope the Speaker puts it through EVEL or better still sort out Devolution for England to put an end to the West Lothian Question.

Interference gets workers rights.
I am pleased for interference in that case.
The government said it would not try to change the Sunday trading laws before the last election. It lied.

Far North

Can you explicitly say that every retail shop in Scotland pays enhanced rates of pay on Sundays. .

Can you say explicitly say that England having the same rights as Scotland over shopping hours will GUARANTEE Scottish retailers will elect to stop paying enhanced rates .

I think the concentration on the enhanced rates supposedly paid throughout Scotland is a pure red herring.

Happy to moan about all the MPs who voted against it, FN. But I think the SNP should not need something to be categorised as EVEL to know that it has nothing to do with them. That said, I 'blame' the government just as much because it looks as if they are using the SNP votes to support things they don't want to go through.

Not that I care much. When we lived in England we sometimes shopped at a supermarket on a Sunday. The only restrictions that seemed silly were those on the sale of alcohol. But there are similarly silly laws in Scotland: you can't buy a bottle of wine before ten o'clock in the morning, as I discovered when I wanted to buy one when walking home from delivering Minibags to school one morning and I went into the village shop as I was passing because I wanted some wine for the evening meal. Daft government interference in people's lives.

POGS Scottish retail workers are not working for the flat rate. The English workers mentioned in a previous post, who want longer hours, probably want them to be paid at premium rate, as now. The SNPs belief, and that of many retail workers, is that that won't happen.

But the Tories didn't trust them to do that and brought in EVEL
This matter wasn't judged to come under EVEL, so the SNP are entitled to vote on it if they want.
If they were the only ones voting against, it would have gone through, so why not have a moan about the other MPs who voted against?

I think the SNP should just butt out of stuff that doesn't affect Scotland, as they said they would after the General Election.

Trust? Ha.

I'm still embarrassed at SNP. I have to say that up here Sunday seems to be a very big shopping day. Families seem to make it a big day out and the food outlets do a roaring trade. I actually hate shopping and do it as little as I can get away with but its a major recreational activity in our cities. I suspect smaller local stores in the country do well too.

So can I assume those who are dead set against England having longer opening hours are very UNhappy the Scottish workers are actually working longer hours already.

After all the reasons some have put forward such as working for the flat rate, no family life, English hours are plenty long enough etc you must feel very sorry for the retail workers in Scotland who are actually working under these conditions you feel are so awful.

Why are retail workers viewed in a different way to say the pub trade, airports, police, nursing, ambulance services, care workers etc.

Perhaps there should be a petition in support of a ' reduction ' in the Scottish Sunday Trading hours.

Would any of you spend more if the opening hours were longer?

I cannot recall ever thinking that I wished the shops were open longer on a Sunday.

Many English retail workers, who are currently entitled to enhanced pay for Sunday work, are also against extending the hours.
Possible reasons :
- they do not want to work longer on that day,
- they fear the removal of the premium, meaning they will work longer hours, on Sunday, for no more pay,
- they do not want to work Sunday but fear they will be pressured to do so.

There is, all the same, already a legal entitlement for retail workers to opt out of Sunday working.

From what I can assess from all this is the fact that just because Scotland has the privilege of a devolved parliament and legislates for longer opening hours in Scotland on a Sunday and SOME, not all, retailers MIGHT pay an enhanced rate of pay the SNP alongside Labour stopped the English and Welsh retailers from having the same opportunity for selling goods/commerce and the people of England and Wales to choose if/when/how and why they can do their shopping Because the SOME Scottish retailers who MIGHT pay enhanced rates COULD stop doing so.

There was a new Schedule 1 clause in the Enterprise Bill which amends the Employment Rights Act to amongst other provisions protect any worker from being forced into working on a Sunday.

Jeremy Corbyn and Kezia Dugdale wrote to Nicola Sturgeon to 'rule out supporting the Bill'. There was a denial during the General Election that intimated if you vote Labour you will be voting for a Labour/SNP pact. Hmmm.

There are complicated issues surrounding the government Bill and the opposition Petition but this vote will re-open the West Lothian Question and English Votes for English Laws (EVEL) is shown to have so many complications/flaws it is the time for England to have the same privilege as Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales and have a Devolved Parliament. That is the only way the disparity of those countries who have devolved powers and the one country that does not can or will ever be seen as a fair playing field. It is not just the fact England has been vetoed from opening it's shops for longer on Sundays in line with Scotland it is the contentious issues that have surrounded the whole vote once again that will beg the question when will England have it's own devolved decision making powers over English only matters.

Good point, farnorth.

In the past, I have worked for a health board which paid premiums for Sat and Sun working and I have worked in a similar job for a local authority which did not pay weekend premiums.
Nevertheless, the local authority job was the better paid one, as the basic hourly rate was higher.
So, to state "employment X gives no premiums so workers in employment Y should be happy with that too" makes no sense unless the basic hourly rate is also known.

Tesco are so hard up, aren't they, FarNorth?
Anyone know what happened to Dame Shirley Porter?

What do you mean Whtewave?

Interesting that the Tories don't seem to have the stomach for a fight with regard to EVEL. Almost certainly something to do with the referendum.

No, but if longer sunday hours become the UK norm, that means the retailers having a higher total number of hours to pay for.
The fear/expectation is that they will seek to make the wage bill easier for themselves by removing the Sunday premium from those who already get it.
I know that Tesco is already in the process of reducing the double time wage, paid to some of their longer-serving employees, down to time and a half. Tesco has stated that this is so that they can afford to pay the National Minimum Living Wage to all, when it is introduced.

Has that happened in Scotland where longer Sunday working hours already exist in shops?