Anti Semitism in Labour Party and Universities.

Yes, granjura, I agree with you. Apparently criticising the current Israeli government is known by some as 'new anti-Semiticism'. It's almost become 'PC' to criticise the state of Israel, because you get accused of being anti-Semitic.

Not sure that I know what you mean either, blueskies.

Yes gran

Are we not here not confusing here being anti the attitude of Israel vis-à-vis Palestine- and anti-semitism? The treatment of the Palestinians and the theft of their lands is intolerable- just as is antesemitism.

Not sure that is what daphne is suggesting but I sure she can speak for herself.
But I heartily agree with you

Whoah --we don't want to join those petitioning for new laws to stop anyone criticising a regime under the pretence of discrimination. There are enough trolls popping up in other forums and arguing for this.

Venus, I'm familiar with Pastor Niemoller's work and life and couldn't agree more, which is why I hate any kind of bigotry, discrimination, racial hatred, etc.

Personally, I think people haven't always learnt the lessons of the Holocaust. I don't think it was just about the Nazis' mistreatment of Jews, socialists, homosexuals, Roma, etc. I think it should be a lesson to everybody about man's inhumanity to man. Unfortunately, I think that will never be eradicated, but any civilised society has a duty to each and every one of us to be vigilant and to make laws aiming to stamp out any form of discrimination or bigotry.

I'm not arguing about your concerns, but I still haven't found any evidence of widespread anti-Semiticism in the Labour Party. If it's there, believe me, I'll be first in the queue to have the leadership do something about it.

I know somebody who's done a PhD in anti-Semiticism over the centuries and it's a horrifying and complicated tale of global bullying, ignorance and much more. I have never been able to get my head round why people pick on a whole people for reasons of skin colour, ethnicity, religion, etc. I'd need to do a PhD in psychology just to scratch the surface.

Exactly - vigilance is the only way. We see so much of what can happen if certain ideologies are allowed to flourish without challenge.

Pastor Niemoller was arrested in 1937 and was eventually put in Sachenhausen and Dachau concentration camps. He was finally released in 1945 by the Allies.

He describes the dangers of political apathy and it may will be an 'old chestnut', but, nevertheless, it is true.

You never know when something is going to affect you.

It is always worth repeating venus

Unfortunately last time someone did on GN, one of the hard right grans called it "that old chestnut"
It is worth noting that it was strongly defended by those of us on the left- so we are not all bad

I can't help thinking about a poem I read written by Paster Martin Niemoller (1892-1948) concerning the cowardice of German intellectuals following the Nazis' rise to power and the following purging of their chosen targets, group after group.

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out-
Because I was not a Socialist

Then they came for the Trade Unionsts, and I did not speak out-
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out-
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me-and there was no one left to speak for me.

Venus, I agree with you and I was rather hoping POGS would reply. I'm unclear what she/he is actually claiming.

I'm not denying that at least two people have been expelled from the Labour Party - rightly so, as far as I can see. I agree that those incidents are in the press, as are others in other parties, especially UKIP. I'm not denying that there are people of all parties who are anti-Semitic. I agree with you that people conflate criticism of Israel with anti-Semiticism, although one can be a front for the other.

What I was really trying to get at is whether POGS thinks anti-Semiticism is endemic in the Labour Party or whether this a case of a few isolated incidents.

I was trying to get more information.

daphnedill, I was not suggesting that the Labour Party contain the only group of people who have antisemites among them. POGS posted the first question particularly citing the Lasbour Party as being antisemitic, so that it what I was concentrating on. I''m quite sure that there are some people in the other political parties that concur with this unpleasant viewpoint. I'm not accusing anything, or anyone that hasn't any foundation. It is in the press for all to see.

I just think that otherwise rational people will suddenly let slip an outrageous belief. I believe it's important to separate condemnation of Israel from condemnation of Jews. Of course, the vast majority of the left is not antisemitic (same with the right) but prejudice is prejudice and shouldn't be ignored if it's aimed at Jews.

I know that is why I am so uncomfortable.

However, (so far) nobody is being unpleasant to each other.

Anti-semitism IS unpleasant.

I worry that this thread is being used for an agenda that has nothing to do with anti semitism - both parties can give examples of such abomination, and I am unclear why this is offered for a matter of conversation. Everything to be said - yes it is wrong, yes it is illegal, yes it exists in society, yes it is being/has been dealt with. So why continue with this thoroughly unpleasant thread?

I can't imagine that there's anybody who wouldn't prefer that anti-Semiticism doesn't exist in society. Of course it does and I'm trying to find out some hard facts. Which of Venus' posts were intelligent and succinct? I'm trying to find out what's behind the accusations. So far, we have that two people have been kicked out of the Labour Party and a couple of others have made accusations. Are people claiming that anti-Semiticism is endemic in the Labour Party?

An interesting article debating the issue in The Israeli Times
www.timesofisrael.com/just-how-anti-semitic-are-british-politicians/

If it is uncomfortable reading..... Some prefer that it didn't exist.
Good intelligent and succinct posts Venus.

Hmmmm... I prefer evidence.

I do know the difference between Israel, Zionism and Jews.

I can't find the link now, but in my searching I found strong evidence that UKIP supporters are the most anti-Semitic, followed by Conservative supporters, then Labour and LibDem.

I just find it curious for the reasons I've given.

There has been an increase in Labour Party membership and MP John Mann is quoted as saying that 'some new members have attitudes that are outdated - they're prejudice'. I can't name any more names, just that there is a worrying tendency in the Labour Part towards antisemiticism.

Israel and Zionism should not be confused with Jews and Judaism.

Does all this matter to the Labour Party? I strongly suspect that it will be a less welcoming political party for the Jews of this country, who have, traditionally, always been strongly pro Labour.

Venus, The reason I'm asking is because I genuinely don't know a lot about the whole matter and I'm trying to find out.

It seems slightly curious that it's the same five or six names which come up when I Google. If you trace these back, they're coming from a single source. When that happens it sometimes indicates that somebody is starting a deliberate campaign. If anti-Semiticism is indeed rife in the Labour Party, you would expect to find multiple sources and more names. I haven't found them and was wondering if you could give further examples.

By the way, my mother has a photo of me with George Lincoln Rockwell, the founder of the American Nazi Party. I hope it never gets into the public domain :-o

I was reacting to Viki Kirby's comments in 2014, when she asked why IS didn't, attack the real oppressor 'evil' Israel. They don't for the reasons previously stated.

Sorry, a misspelling of Downing. How many more examples do you need of anti-semitism? Its leader is highly suspect, and example comes from the top, doesn't it?

I also know quite a bit about anti semitism and, no, it most certainly isn't specifically a Labour Party problem.