The Labour Party

Anya, whitewave was not the first to speak of other parties

Here we go!

This is NOT about the Tories whitewave this is about the Labour party and the path it is being led down. I'm not the only one who thinks it is being torn apart.

The Labour Party has never got shot of a leader , the tories got shot of Thatcher when she was PM

If anyone on here thinks that Labour is looking dodgy, it is a million miles from what the Tories are looking like. You can hear the venom between the two sides. The General opinion is that it will be almost impossible if not actually impossible for them to recover after the referendum. I think we are in for some interesting times.
One comentator said that the poisonous and bitter language could not possibly be broadcast. Nobody does splits and hate like the Tories.

I did not vote for JC in the recent leadership election. I left the labour party when Militant were running wild, re joined when Ed Milliband was elected leader because I'd seen him speak and liked his approach. Sadly, none of that translated into leadership material and all political parties need charismatic leaders, especially leaders who can appear on tv and impress, make people feel the country is safe in their hands. That isn't JC, in my view. I accept he won a huge mandate, I didn't like the £3 vote but I felt I ought to support him for the following year because of the strength of votes for him. We're about 8 months in and whilst I often agree with what he says, I don't trust or warm to him. He reminds me so much of men I worked with in the 80's - it was their way or the high way, despite all their talk of equality and fraternity.

I don't see why a former libdem voter would vote conservative. The slashing and burning of valued public services by this government,now the libdems are no longer holding them back is frightening. I didn't like Nick Clegg, found him conceited and I thought I'd never vote libdem. However - the way things are going I can see them becoming a force to be reckoned with again.

Nobody would vote tactically if we had a fair voting system - which means proportional representation. Tactical voting is negative and depressing - you end up voting for what you think is the lesser of two evils. Vote for what you believe in - and campaign for fair votes.

varian the Lib Dems are finished for the forseeable future, maybe forever,and jalima is correct, tactical voting is what I shall do next time.However, I don't want to go into this 'in depth' as Anya started this thread wanting Labour voters to comment, moderate Labour voters.

rosesarered please stick to your principles. If you have voted LIbDem in the past why on earth would you change to the Tories now?

I cannot answer for rosesarered but have you never heard of 'tactical voting' varian.
And some people read the manifestos very carefully indeed before deciding which way to vote.
Others decide that the party in power has gone too far in what it is trying to do and vote accordingly to try to bring back a balance.

There are many people who are not strict adherents to any one party, who read and listen very carefully and are not dogmatic either way; if there were not we would never have a change of government - end of democracy.

Yes Anya

I come from a family of traditional Labour voters although I am more of a floater and do not like extremes of either right or left. Some of my nearest and dearest would not dream of voting other than Labour (and were most certainly not fans of New Labour!) but are not at all keen on the present Labour leadership and some of the Shadow Cabinet. They have said that they hope that, by the move to the left, New Labour will be left behind but that there will be another Labour leader and a change of some of the Shadow Cabinet before a General Election.

Ah yes, I remember my DF waxing lyrical about the Labour Party in the days of Nye Bevan etc! I wish I could ask his opinion of Corbyn et al (and somehow I don't think he would be overly impressed).

I regret the huge weakening of the Liberal democrats. They kept the more extreme Tories in moral check. We can all see what has happened to social care since the last election.

Yes there are people who have taken advantage of the system in the past but many families are in need today. Not acceptable in a rich country .
All this while some of the rich fight not to pay and to milk the system .

I am not sure the current labour party are doing much to stand up for workers rights. I like the ideas and manner of JC but he doesn't have guts and determination IMO. Sorry if this post seems a bit confused.

Every party has disagreements in the ranks .

How we do need a Nye Bevan Tricia, the thought of him across the dispatch box from Cameron would be a joy to hear.

So many great MP's from the Labour Party in the past who have done good for this country , people were bound to be drawn to Corbyn , he is of the time of Benn, Tam Dalyell, Donald Dewer, etc.

rosesarered please stick to your principles. If you have voted LIbDem in the past why on earth would you change to the Tories now? You must have seen the difference between the coalition government which did implement some good LIbDem policies and the unfettered hardline Tory government we've got now.

It seems illogical to blame ex-LibDem voters for deserting them when they put party before country and paid a heavy price and then say you'll do the same.

I think the LibDems may take some time to recover but they are certainly not finished. This country needs a strong Liberal Democratic party and if you think of yourself as a LIberal please continue to support them.

Evidence, dear POGS, evidence!

I'm going to work now, so you'll have plenty of time to get some together ;-)

I agree with you, TriciaF, that the Labour Party needs a credible leader to pull them all together. It's often forgotten that the seeds of the post-war social revolution were sown during the war by a coalition government. Labour Attlee had been deputy Prime Minister and Beveridge was a Liberal. Churchill flipflopped between Conservatives and Liberals. Even the post-war Labour government experienced disagreement within its ranks.

The Labour Party itself has always been a 'coalition' of people with different views. Many of the earliest MPs came from non-conformist religious backgrounds, others were Fabians, others were social democrats and very few were Marxists.

To me, there have always been some 'red lines' with all post war governments and this one has overstepped most of them. Labour needs some simple messages to get people to understand what's going on.

daphnedil

You only forget 'labels' when you choose to .

If Corbyn is not ' far left' as has been pronounced on other threads by his devotees why is there so much material to suggest otherwise. Blimey even the sainted Guardian calls him 'far left'.

If you can elect to dismiss Momentum, as many do, then you will be in for a shock in the future. Militant Tendency has it's footprint all over the Momentum group. I actually think there are posters who could possibly receive e.mails from Momentum , I would be surprised if they do not post on this thread.

It's a question that bothers me too, having grown up in a NE coalmining town and seen the deprivation so became an idealistic member of the Labour Party as soon as I was old enough. I was "far-left" (still am, but not a trotskyist.)
Just post-war the majority of the population was sympathetic to those who had lost the most, and our party was able to carry through most of the necessary reforms in the following 20-30 years.
Then what? I left the party when Blair was on the ascendance and rejoined last year hoping that Corbyn could rekindle the earlier enthusiasm. But by then the Tories had reverted to their pre-war dominance, and anyway, the social problems are very different now.
So I think there's still a need for an effective opposition, with a caring attitude towards those who are losing out. The task ahead is to identify the "new poor and deprived" and try to correct the current imbalance. We need someone in the same class as A. Bevan, E. Shinwell, T. Benn etc for inspiration.

Incidentally, I don't think people do go on facts. They start with some very irrational views and they use selected facts to reinforce their prejudices.

I did just say 'let's forget about labels' so I can.

What are your priorities for how a country should be run?

Perhaps his son will take on that mantle? I understand he is considered in some quarters to be a rising star. Not sure about the far left though.

Of course you can forget labels.

So, if you were starting up a political party or even in government, what kind of principles would you have?

What would be the bullet points in your manifesto?

No, it's not Militant Tendency all over again. I think you should check your history books.

You can't say ' let's forget about labels'! In fact there is some debate about whether Corbyn and McDonnel et al are Trots, but they are certainly far left.

Neil Kinnock must be really upset to see what is happening now, when he got rid of them all back then!

anya, Militant Tendency all over again? But this time no Neil Kinnock to kick them out?

How can you forget 'labels'. People go on facts don't they.?

'Labels' are happily applied to other party's , what's so different about Labour.

If it walks like an animal, smells like an animal, It's an animal scenario.