Hillsborough verdict

Directly from the mouth of Andy Burnham:

“I hope Hillsborough will change the country. I want to change the law so that police officers can’t retire to escape misconduct proceedings and keep their pensions."

“I also want, I hope also hope that the country will look differently at Liverpool now. The fight that has been mounted, for years they were looked down upon by many people, called ‘self pity city’ by Boris Johnson, but do you know what? They really are solidarity city, red and blue together, and in the end those values of Liverpool have shone through... the end of the story is this, at the end of the day you know what? Those ‘whingeing Scousers just happened to be right.”

Some will always blame the victims to defend the police , how they defend the indefensible is a mystery . If their son/daughter /father/mother were being crushed to death and police stood looking on but doing nothing one wonders if they would defend the police then.

If the crowd were to blame why did the police state the fans had broken through the the gate when they gave the order to open the gate for the fans to enter a death trap , silly victims yes?

I think it has been forgotten that in the 70's and 80's football violence was endemic and It wasn't just a North- South problem. People living in homes in or around the stadium of Oxford United used to dread their home games particularly if they lost!
The only advice the Police could give to residents was to stay locked indoors and just hope and pray that the rioting that inevitably ensued between rival fans didn't cause too much mayhem and damage - It often did, at times resembling a battle ground, with the addition of human excrement adding to the general misery of the people having to clear up. This was the same at virtually all matches on and off the pitch.
There were no health and safety rules 30 years ago, police were not trained for crowd control the way the are today, paramedics didn't exist, first aid was administered by St John's Ambulance, (remember them?) who were by and large young volunteers, and not professionally trained as the paramedics of today. The police cover up was quite disgraceful, and should certainly be acted upon, but to try and completely blame the police for what they clearly believed at the time to be a riot, so common at matches at this time, acting upon it as they saw fit, is imo totally unfair. I don't think any police officer on duty that day actually set out to kill 96 people! Hillsborough was at the time, an accident waiting to happen, wherever the match was being played.

If a person knows that they are incompetent or not up to a job, then they so shouldnt be in it.

Manslaughter? Up to a jury to decide that one.

The subsequent cover up doesn't affect the actual event. How they can they use that to convict him of manslaughter. Makes no sense. The cover up should be dealt with quite separately.

If an incompetent captain steered a ship onto rocks with subsequent loss of life, I can see that would be manslaughter due to incompetence. The passengers on that ship would have no way contributed to that situation. Can anyone really say the same about this case?

Again, I feel desperately sorry for the fans who were already in place before the match started. They would have been in the worst place - at the front.

I feel sorry for all of the fans involved. That goes without saying.

Shock, perhaps papers will be mislaid - yet again

Your right Annie it will never happen. 'They' can't let it happen.

I doubt the CPS will do anything to bring justice. They claim they have to check all those note books etc and there will be no findings untill next year , the papers have been available for twenty seven years , I fear the families will not get the justice they seek, I hope I am wrong

David Duckenfield has said sorry and can be forgiven.

But that is not the same as justice. He himself has to be brought to account.
If he truly sees the error of his ways, he will know that himself.

"It has now dawned on me what it means to you".

No words for that.

There are things about this that make me uneasy. There was more to the Hillsborough disaster than just one man's mistake.

Take for instance the design of the stadium. And all the barriers used to separate rival fans. Because of these, when the Leppings Lane gate was opened and fans flooded in there was no way out, resulting in the fatal crush injuries.

What was a reason for these lethal barriers being in place?

Juggernaut, it must be upsetting for you but don't give up on your defence of the innocent

The whole scenario is just so sad. That these families have had to wait for twenty seven years for some kind of justice is indefensible. My heart bleeds for them.
The equiry was a sham , a disgrace.
I applaud Andy Burnham in his efforts to seek the truth

Jings
Mercy? For David Duckinfield? No chance!

+During days of intense questioning at the inquests, he admitted that he had lied about mistakes he made on the day and had kept that lie going for 26 years and through several legal inquiries.+

+Mr Duckenfield, now 71, had claimed that after a large crowd built up outside the turnstiles at the Leppings Lane end of the stadium, Liverpool fans had broken in, causing a rush of people to flood into the fenced-in terraces.
But he now admits the crush occurred after he ordered an exit gate to be opened allowing 2,000 Liverpool fans to enter the stadium in just five minutes.+

"I think it's fair to say that it is arguably one of the biggest regrets of my life, that I did not foresee where fans would go when they came in through the gates," he said.
+He also admitted to a "terrible lie". "Everybody knew the truth, the fans and police knew the truth that we'd opened the gates," he said.+

+"Over this period, I have had to come to terms with reality, and that is why, over the period, you might say I dug my head in the sand, didn't admit things to myself, but I am now very much older, very much wiser, and very much more understanding of the events of the day and have decided to tell the whole truth."+

+To the families he added: "It has now dawned on me what it means to you, and I am dreadfully sorry."+

He's 71, well he's lucky to get to such an age, it rests squarely on his shoulders that 96 people didn't achieve that age!
He "struggled to sleep", suffered severe depression and PTSD, and seems to expect sympathy. Well, he'll get no sympathy from this quarter!

I don't think I'll bother commenting further on this thread as some people are determined to disagree with the findings of the inquest.
I had no idea that we had so many brilliant legal minds amongst us!

I just don't believe him, how can he speak of his distress of a mother cradling her dead child yet continue with the lies against that dead child

That's the law.

Anybody with an important responsibility could claim lack of training or experience. If he felt that he wasn't adequately trained, he should have declined and requested back up. Maybe he should be holding South Yorks responsible, but only if he made the force aware that he felt he needed further training.

Why were there cover ups, if the police had a clear conscience? Why did they not challenge the Sun's version of events?

Anybody with a role involving a great deal of responsibility, especially for people's lives, must be up to the job and be aware of reasons why he/she isn't and has a duty to report those reasons. That's why they get paid more than others.

Duckenfield has been retired on full pension since shortly after the disaster.

Had he - and others, come out, admitted the failings and faced up to the truth, AT THE TIME, the lies would not have been perpetrated for 27 years, and forgiveness may have been possible. But the cover up, the systematic conspiracy and deception. And yet, still, people are making excuses. Unbelievable. What those families have gone through...

No mercy? For a man quite obviously out of his depth?

This is how he feels about it now

"The jury found match commander Ch Supt David Duckenfield was "responsible for manslaughter by gross negligence" due to a breach of his duty of care."

that's from this BBC article

I think that's grossly unfair.

'The 'unlawful killing' verdict means that it was legally not just a tragic accident.

Not necessarily. There were failures by the police and ambulance service. However, the jury ruled that the fans did not contribute to the deaths.

This is just a question. When the verdict of "unlawful killing" was given, did it mean, unlawful killing by the police?

Unlawfully killed does not mean endangered their own lives ,

The polices attempt! To cover up the truth lasted 27 years, and last year they gave the same evidence as 26 years earlier , I heard a father say today they had thanked the few police who had try to help, that is honesty , blaming the fans who were entitled to police protection but denied it, is cruel and so not true