Hillsborough verdict

Really, Judy 751? I despair!

Who said anything about 'solely'?

You are carrying on the claims which have been made for 27 years.

You are blaming an amorphous mass of fans for the deaths of some of its own members. That's what the Sun and cover ups tried to do. The police's role was to control surges and the safe movement of fans.

judy751
"Indulged in the surge"??? Rather a poor choice of words don't you think?
Let's all face it, if it had happened to the supporters of a southern team, and at a southern ground, it couldn't possibly have been caused by fans. However, it was up here in the beautiful north, and Liverpudlians were involved, so it was quite obviously their fault!
27 years of wrongly laying the blame squarely on Liverpool fans, and for some of you, it will stay that way forever!

I agree with the verdict of 'unlawful killing' but I do not agree that the police were solely responsible.

The 'unlawful killing' verdict DOES mean that the police were legally responsible for what happened, whether you personally think they SHOULD be responsible or not.

Exactly Smileless2012.

I totally agree with you judy751, an excellent post. It was a terrible tragedy but no one group or organisation was to blame. The police's attempt to cover up their mistakes and errors of judgement is appalling but they should not be held responsible for the disaster and if charges are to be made, they should be made for 'covering up' and not for the tragic deaths.

So the Hillsborough victims committed sucicide and the police who stood in a line and watched fans carrying bodies were just behaving as people did 27 years ago,

And all police officers huddled together and changed their details of what really happened ?

Can we expect all police officers to compliment fellow officers - as was done today - and claim 'we did a good job that day'

Still putting the boot in after 27 years, they are so misunderstood bless them,

I'm not sure that much has been achieved if we're talking about truth. Times and attitudes are very different now. I think the police are being focused on and blamed unfairly based on our culture now. They are scapegoats for the failures of the time. The culture of violence and drunkenness at matches and the methods employed to separate fans appear to me to have been glossed over. I'm not happy with misdeeds made by police supervisors after the event but that was after the event.
I also think that people have muddled criticism of fans as being criticism of those that died.
Yes, the police in hindsight could have controlled the surge better and I doubt that after Hillsborough it would happen again, lessons WERE learnt - but who indulged in the surge? Not the police, not the planners, not the architects - it was the fans.
It was tragic and horrible and I feel sad for every life lost but I hate this obsession with trying to blame anyone except the people who caused the suffocating surge. People in crowds or groups aren't good, they cease thinking as individuals and often act in ways they never would If they were on their own. I believe there are many people who know they contributed towards the horrible death of others but would happily blame authorities rather than face the truth that they were involved. So I'm afraid for me this is just a witch-hunt.

I voted for Andy when Ed stood for leadership , he has said he will not stand again, hope he changes his mind

Off topic but I do wish Andy B had won the leadership campaign.

Andy Burnham has come out of this very well to my mind, showing true compassion and anger at what has been going on. In the Liverpool Echo he is reported as alleging that he was told to drop it ( his 'poking about in HIllsborough') by Blair as a result of pressure from bloody Murdoch. That man has a lot to answer for and has far too much power, apart from in Liverpool obviously. I would imagine that there are a few folk having sleepless nights/contacting their lawyers this week. The taint of Blair has been on this and on the knighthood awarded to Green.

Thank you for your post, Jugernaut. I was watching the news this morning and it is clear how much the support of the Liverpool people means to the families. I do hope that whatever happens next brings a sense that justice has been done at last.

I agree Jalima and Petra ,

It was the lying, the cover-ups and blaming dead victims that is abhorrent in this case.

DS is a Liverpool supporter, he was too young to have travelled and to have been there on that day.
He has the most enormous respect for Andy Burnham.

Making mistakes is understandable and humane nature, we have all made mistakes.
I think using the word mistake is stretching it to its limit with this police force.
Orgreave colliery
Rotherham child sex abuse horror
Hillsborough

It is like standing on the side of a pond, seeing someone drown, but not going in because of 'orders'.

I thought I heard that they were standing in a line in case there was further 'trouble'.

What is so hard to see is the people carrying dead/injured victims whilst the police stand in a row awaiting orders , the natural reaction would be to race to help but their training kept them in line waiting for orders. Yet the officer in charge is excused for not remembering his training , he must have had experience of crowd control

Making mistakes is understandable and human nature, we have all made mistakes. Lying about it is unforgivable and criminal behaviour and should be punished. But we must differentiate between the two and have no witch hunts which I feel may happen. The police are not universally corrupt and we must recognize that or civilization as we know it will collapse as all public services and any public body will be suspect. I really fear for us all and I feel that is an extreme reaction on my part.
.

^ the mystery is - why did I marry a police officer^
because I don't think most police officers are corrupt
However, power does corrupt so perhaps the further up the ranks they go the more likely it will be?

I think that if I had a family member who had died in such a horrific way and I had seen the TV footage of the obvious lack of urgency and negligence displayed, I would not be able to put it behind me until everything was brought out into the open. Me neither.

Justice and truth - are not exactly the same thing but should go hand in hand.

I feel extremely sorry for the parents of the fourteen year old boy. More than I can.

Jingles I've been out in the sunshine this afternoon and have just returned to see your message aimed at me!
Let's get a few things straight here, I was not 'joining in the emotional hysteria' as you put it.
I was in the place I count as my home city.
I worked with people who were at Hillsborough on the day.
Men my husband worked with were at the match, all but one of his friends came home.
I have met parents of young victims and wept alongside them during the past 27 years.
I have seen how hard the people of this city have had to fight for the truth.
I was at work on the Monday after Hillsborough, I travelled into the city on a train full of stunned people, walked through a virtually silent city, spent the day (and many after) listening to people, young and old, who were trying to make sense of what had happened.
I experienced a city in shock.
Therefore I wanted to experience, first hand, that same city when justice finally prevailed.
I was not jumping up and down, waving banners and chanting, I walked quietly around the city centre, feeling the waves of relief.
I had my lunch in the John Lewis store, where the main topic of conversation was the Hillsborough verdicts. I can't imagine that any one of us in there having lunch could have been described as 'joining in the emotional hysteria', but we all shared a sense of relief that the truth had emerged at last.
I'm not pretending that all Liverpool (or any other club) football supporters are angelic, but to attempt to blame the victims was appalling behaviour.
Imagine for one moment, waving goodbye to your fourteen year old son, off to watch his team in an FA cup semi final, full of life and excitement, then getting him returned to you in a coffin.
As you quite obviously know nothing at all about Liverpool, it's people, or indeed, me, I'm at a loss as to why you would assume I am the type to join in with 'emotional hysteria'.

I have not, and never will have, any sympathy at all for David Duckinfield. Admittedly he had a hard job to do on the day, and everyone makes mistakes at some point in their life, but he lied about his mistakes for 27 long years

Yeah. That's right ab.

Petra, seems he had decided to retire in November , so cannot be dismissed because the CPS do not expect to finish their reviewing of all the evidence until next year

Jingle , you have just said you do not wish to speak to me because you find me unpleasant, do you mean you have no wish to engage in any discussions with me but wish to post insults to me ?