Ken Livingstone

Suppose the Archbishop of Canterbury wrote a piece attacking Israel's treatment of the Palestinians' and it was published by the Daily Telegraph? Would you dismiss that in the same way as you dismiss the Chief Rabbi's article, ab and dj, or do you treat a Jewish religious leader differently?

Or are all articles in the DT tainted, whatever the views expressed?

Thank you very much for the link to the Open Democracy article. I thought it provided a very detailed examination of the issues surrounding the current accusations of anti-semitism

Why should it be accepted that any politician or public figure who criticises Israel in relation to its treatment of the Palestinians should be accused of anti-semitism?

Jonathan Freedland - who likes to present himself as a person of reason, apparently thought it was quite in order to describe Finkelstein - a strong critic of Israeli policies - (who lost all his family, apart from his parents, in the Holocaust) as "closer to the people who created the Holocaust than to those who suffered it."

Ken Livingstone has always been a person who "opens mouth before engaging brain". I don't believe he makes these sorts of comments because he is a racist, an attention seeker or a deliberate "trouble maker" - I think he genuinely feels strongly about some issues. At least he is not one of those politicians - and there are many of them in all parties - who dare not give an honest answer/expresss an honest opinion on any subject at all for fear of being frozen out by their colleagues or losing favour with the electorate. I think KL's contribution in this instance has been extremely muddled and unhelpful. However, even if someone's mental faculties are not what they were (and I don't know if that's true or not in the case of KL), I think to suggest a person be "put out to grass", is rather ageist. Some of us may face declining mental capacity as we get older and I wouldn't like to be referred to in such a dismissive way.

In my opinion a racist remark is one that stereotypes and/or negatively judges a person's physical, intellectual and moral characteristics/abilities, on the basis of their ethnic origins, and racist policies are ones that deny a particular group the same rights and respect as everyone else. I would be interested to know how many people have heard anti-semitic remarks expressed by anyone in the course of their ordinary day-to-day conversations and exchanges. I can't think of a single instance when I have heard remarks of this nature made about Jewish people. I have heard many such remarks made about various other minority groups, including Asians (Muslims in particular), gypsies, East Europeans and people of African or Afro-Caribbean origin. The history of the genocide of Native Australians and Americans receives very little attention, nor does the subject of the obliteration of their culture, and they continue to be characterised as "a problem". There is very little outcry about these examples of ongoing racism.

There seems to be a very small number of highly educated people involved in politics and academia whose views can probably rightly be described as blatantly anti-semitic. The Oxford University Conservative Association was suspended when it was reported that some members had joined in an anti-semitic song that referred to Jewish people as "kikes" and which made joking references to the Third Reich and the Holocaust. A more general example of racism occurred when it was suspended for setting up a competition to find the most racist joke. Even Prince Harry was strongly criticised for using the terms "raghead" and "Paki". Minority parties like the NF, the BNP and the EDF, have, I believe, a strongly racist agenda which has in the past been anti-semitic but which at the moment is more focused on attacking Muslims.

Didn't realise it was from the torygraph Jen, explains much

Yes but it's in the Telegraph. Does that count, as it's owned by tax cheats.

The Chief Rabbi has launched an attack on Corbyn and the Labour Party . I now hope either the Arch Bishop of Canterbury or the Arch Bishop of Wales will speak out against the atrocities carried out by Israel - think more chance of seeing flying pigs

A Jew does not have to,practice the faith but if their mother is a Jew the child is , some grntiles choose to convert to Judaism

Im, please do not tell me to read posts and I have the same rights to post my views as you.

If I join a discussion I read every post , I read them because I choose too not because I am told to.

Pretty sure Jewishness is both a religion and a race. And all identify with Israel.

^ I'm sure that as in all such conflicts, ordinary people on both sides would prefer some kind of negotiated settlement and hopefully, that's what will happen^
Yes Iam64 and I am sure many Israelis do not condone the actions of their government and wish for peace.

A good link JessM, very thought-provoking.

The thought that I am left with is whether one sees Jewishness as a religion or as a race; how many Jews identify with Israel or with their country of birth?

Please Anniebach, give it a rest. Read the various posts and comments here providing a more balanced view of the views of many Israeli's and members of the British Jewish community .

I haven't seen anyone suggesting its anti semitic to criticise the actions of the Israeli government towards the Palestinians. there are several posts that also criticise some of the horrific terrorist attacks perpetrated in the name of the Palestinian people. I'm sure that as in all such conflicts, ordinary people on both sides would prefer some kind of negotiated settlement and hopefully, that's what will happen.

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/may/03/russian-embezzlers-went-on-spending-spree-in-uk-mps-told

Involving Panama papers, absent.

Tiresome remarks is a good word to describe some of his words absent

Someone up-thread said they admired him and someone else said that he was personable? I think.
Well, he is personable and even charming - or plausible - but in my opinion he is Machiavellian.

I haven't looked at any British newspapers recently but I wouldn't mind betting that there is plenty of comment about the always tiresome remarks of Ken Livingstone and putative institutional anti-Semitism in the Labour Party but probably very little about some other massively important matters, such as the "Panama Papers" and offshore hedge funds. Of course, these are not such colourful stories and require some effort and understanding on the part of journalists to write them.

If a Jew condemns the actions of Israel they will be called anti Semitic ?

Thanks JessM that was an interesting, well informed link. Thanks also to Penstemmon's post today at 16.35 which states what some here are denying, that many Israeli's condemn the actions of their government towards the Palestinian people. I also appreciate Penstemmon's comments condemning some of the horrific terrorist attacks that have taken place in the name of the Palestinian people.

To suggest as Anniebach did earlier in this discussion, that no one can now condemn Israel for its treatment of Palestinians is plain wrong.

Yes a very good link - but I wouldn't go as far as apologising to Naz Shah wink.
There's so much to read, not just on the Ken Livingstone issue ( I've always admired him), but on the history of Israel, of the Holocaust, and and of our Labour Party.
My mind is undecided, I try to see all sides.
I'm reading a book at the moment called "Frauen", by Alison Owings. Interviews with German women who lived through WW2, their views of Hitler, their horrific experiences, and attitudes to the Holocaust.

JessM Thank you for such an informative link. I think there was a criticism earlier of link posting but I have found many of the links very informative and definitely do add something to the debate, and am grateful that someone takes the trouble to do it. Wish I knew how.

I suppose Penstemmon that its plain old bullying.

What a breath of fresh air, truth and integrity that link is.

There are a number of Holocaust survivors who speak out against the atrocities meted out by Israeli forces. There are many Israeli Jews who are against the governments policy towards Palestine. They are not all "bitter and twisted" surely?

As someone with Palestinian heritage I am not in denial about some of the horrific terrorist attacks that have taken place under the name of Palestine and neither do I condone or justify them even if I can understand why some felt "justified" in carrying them out. I would still say it was wrong to use violence.

It feels to me that some Jews find it hard to accept that sometimes terrible things have been /are being done by Jews in Israel.

The Israeli government uses the argument that it is justified to use overwhelming force to 'protect' its borders. The Palestine's military power is minimal compared to Israel. To shoot to kill civilians , to cheer at dying/dead Palestinians is a daily event for many Israelis, to humiliate and make daily living difficult by controlling access/utilities /medical aid etc. to encroach, bit by bit, on Palestinian land, to deny their is a Palestinian history and culture is a deliberate government policy to dehumanise the Palestinians in the eyes of the Israeli electorate. It has been done before.

For a change I find myself in complete agreement with Anniebach!

Truly don't get the 'bitter and twisted' either. I'd imagine anyone of his generation whose family has suffered so massively and cruelly at the hands of the Nazis would be deeply affected by it - but his experiences make what he says so much more real and poignant to me. Same with Finkelstein.

Thanks for that excellent link Jess- and yes, great post Daphne.

I don't know why you think Kaufman is a bitter person or why you think his mind is twisted and I won't go there, as you don't want to.

I also don't know whether the Israeli government deliberately exploits guilt, but I do think many non-Jews DO feel guilty about the holocaust. It's part of the German psyche and is still strong - understandably.

I certainly know of people who will quite openly criticise Muslims (and not for real reasons such as mysogony, etc), but will go quiet and seem embarrassed if anybody criticises Israel.