NHS

I thought you never understood what I say, dj. Now you've just proved it. What the heck did you think I was talking about when I said that what is happening to the NHS and some other things right now is because we have a Tory government, if I wasn't talking about Tory ideology? What did I mean when I said it's no surprise to me because this is what Tories do if I wasn't talking about the ideology?

Dear me! It's hard to credit that you could have missed that I've talked about political ideology all along.

What else would you expect of a Tory government? Privatisation of the health service has been creeping up on us since Thatcher!!

And we have a Tory government so we can talk till the cows come home about ideals and that it would be nice if... but we can actually do fuck all until the next general election.

"NHS bosses have spent £33 million on management consultants in the past two years – to help them fine-tune plans to close A&E departments and then sell the idea to the public.

They lavished more than £12.5 million on the McKinsey consultancy in the two years to April 2015 – including £10 million last year – and £9.4 million on PA Consulting, according to information obtained from a Freedom of Information request.

The remainder was spent on an array of other business and media consultants, including £301,000 on advertising agency M&C Saatchi, and £537,000 on public relations.

The money was spent on the Shaping A Healthier Future programme, which advocated the closure of four out of nine A&E departments in North- West London.

A Shaping A Healthier Future spokeswoman said: ‘We are undertaking large scale improvements for our two million residents, including increasing access to primary care.’ "
Anyone live in North West London?

"There have been articles in reputable newspapers about the fact the health trusts are in debt by large amounts and that they have to do something about it. That's hardly under the radar."

Does that mention Tory ideology? Can't see it anywhere. Just mentions finance.

nhap.org/what-you-can-do/facts-fingertips/

Anyone who is interested in the NHA's views, this wiki is updated quite regularly.

I do see your point, thatbags. Despite the fact that David Cameron said the NHS would be "safe" in their hands and that no major re-organisation would follow if the Conservatives were elected and then reneged on both those pledges, we are stuck with these people until the next election. But I think the amount of public pressure exerted regarding other issues has caused this government to abandon many of its proposals. Perhaps if enough people expressed their opposition to the under-funding of the NHS and associated services this might force the government to change tack (though I won't hold my breath).

nhap.org/what-you-can-do/facts-fingertips/charging-for-the-nhs/

Two links, one from Cananda and the other about Germany.

@thatbags

How rude!

Durhamjen has a right to post what she likes, if it doesn't contravene guidelines. You are free to go and do something else.

Anyone know what's happened to David Nicholson, the man who fronted the NHS for Andrew Lansley?

I'm not holding mine either, eloethan. I appreciate the fact that you understand my point. I was beginning to think I wasn't speaking plain English on this thread.

I live in a country where we pay (about £20) for each visit to a GP and a little less for an appointment with a practice nurse. We also pay for prescription drugs, antibiotics, etc. though not so highly as in the UK, and extra for such things as the speculum when a woman has a cervical cancer smear or for blood tests. Breast cancer screening is free. GP visits for children under five are free and there is a plan to extend that to children under ten. At the moment and until that happens, there are poor families who simply cannot afford to take a sick child to their GP and who have to wait until the illness has become severe enough to go to A & E, where the treatment and possible hospitalisation is free. Emergency treatment and necessary treatment in hospital is free. At the same time, we are in the unenviable position of having the highest rate of melanoma in the world and are still using massively outdated 40-year-old methods when there is much better modern treatment that is described as "not cost-effective" although it used in many other countries, including Australia, which also has a major problem with melanoma.

It is very different from living in the UK and I should hate to see the NHS to change even to this halfway system. To change to something like the system that exists in the USA would be both disastrous and horrendous.

I've just read an article by Clare Foges in which she says that (I'm paraphrasing; don't seem to be able to get a link), while the NHS in England (NHSE) is in debt to the tune of £2.45billion, it costs them £2.8billion a year to treat health problems linked to excess alcohol consumption, another £2billion on smoking related health problems and, as for obesity and its related health issues, it's apparently "a slow motion car crash" according to Simon Stevens, CE of NHSE.

SO, Foges argues, "Part of the answer to the NHS's financial problems must lie in curbing lifestyle-driven demand through a more radical nanny state". I interpret this as meaning she's in favour of the sugar tax, but that we need more "sin taxes". This goes against normal Tory philosophy: Libertarians argue that if you are doing no harm the government should butt out. But if lifestyle choices have a direct impact on the NHS, which Foges is arguing they do, then in a sense your choices are doing harm: they are harming the NHS for everyone.

The "coda to live and let live", she say, is "let the NHS take the strain". Meanwhile teenagers with mental health problems are having to wait months for treatment, and very old people are vying for the attention of overstretched nurses, to mention just a couple of unfairnesses that result from that strain.

She has a point.

It's an interesting point Tb's.

Persuasion to stop self inflicted unhealthy life styles certainly would save lives and money (it would be good that any extra taxes raised went into the NHS).

This message needs to be out across loud and clear bags - but I wonder how many people will accept this shift in thinking?

Of course the irony is that many of those teenagers with mental health issues will turn to drugs and/or alcohol as a means of coping.

POGS says that the NHS should be a cross party matter but Eloethan questions it's running on neutral terms. Nothing is working well with current governments running the NHS. This system will not 'operate' successfully when every 5 years new initiatives are introduced and systems are interfered with.
If a cross party system of direction is not going to work - there must be another way, although I'm not sure what. It is obvious that as things are - it will never work. If efficiently directed, I am optimistic that the monies pumped in to the NHS at the moment would be more than enough to go round and - in the interests of everyone - this rotten government should raise taxes and bury it's own self interests.
I have a little knowledge of 'lean operations' and am confident that this would be of help in assisting efficiency and reducing costs. This would not be costly if introduced into one trust and then rolled out to others if successful.
The NHS needs an 'emergency operation'!!!

Anya you are right, mental health at any age is a whole new can of worms. However, the same idea applies, try to treat the root cause, by whatever means is available.
I have had mental health problems, and did/do turn to alcohol sometimes. But I was lucky that my Doctor refereed me for treatment and it has been successful in enabling me to live a normal and productive life most of the time. (there are those that say normal for me is still a bit weird )

www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/23/nhs-10bn-a-year-black-hole-2020-cipfa-report

Four years away.

“The UK spends among the lowest of any developed nation on health. It is not enough. To protect the NHS and the considerable value for money it offers, the government must show leadership. I’m calling for an independent commission to set a golden ratio of GDP spend on healthcare free from short-term political priorities.”

And individual responsibility DJ?

Durhamjen thumbs up to a really good suggestion!!

PS to Durhamjen - I do wish you wouldn't include so many links - I haven't the patients to read them!!

If a golden ratio is required for the NHS, why not for education, social services, police, prisons, and defence? And suppose GDP grows less quickly than necessary health service expenditure? Would there have to ba a cutback to stick to the formula?

I'm obese. I have an eating disorder amongst my many other mental health issues. I object to my obesity being classed as self inflicted. It's part of my medical condition.

I also self harm. At times I've been to a and e because I've cut too deep. Should I be penalised for that too? After all my wounds are self inflicted.

Or shall we have the deserving obese etc and the undeserving? Prove yourself to be deserving and you can have treatment. Fail to prove it and tough.

There's the rub: sorting the sheep from the goats, so to speak. What do you think of the idea of more tax on things like sugar, nicotine and alcohol, vamp?