I am wrong thinking this but I can't help it.

They should be treated like they treated the children I hope they have a really bad time in prison . Lessons will be learnt is said too often when clearly they aren't . Glad you are really happy now nonnie .

You are all right about the death penalty, deep down I know that, but I do resent the cost to the rest of us for keeping these types for the next heaven knows how long; money that could be put to much better use in recruiting more social workers, or whatever else that money is so desperately needed for to try and prevent these sort of tragedies occurring, or when they do, having the resources to deal promptly with them.

Nonnie I am so glad you have managed to rise above your childhood experiences. I have worked with, and known personally many people who have done exactly that, going on to be happy in their lives and to become loving partners and parents. So I agree that it is never satisfactory to explain away abusive behaviour as a result of childhood experiences. When working with abusers who were themselves abused I have often felt sadness for the child they once were, but I never felt their past excused what they did. So I have no sympathy whatsoever for these women. I do not believe in the death penalty but I would like to see them locked up for the rest of their lives. Some crimes are so terrible that I don't believe the perpetrators should ever be freed.

Nonnie1, That is good news that your life has since your sad childhood proved to be a happy one. I think a lot of life is luck, although of course people can as adults influence that luck! I hope things continue to be good for you.
Like you, I think these two are just plain evil as their cruelty was so calculated, not a mother overtired, at the end of her tether, or just overwhelmed by the day to day care of three lively boys. A lot of us have been there, but none of us have actually tortured our offspring in the cold light of day on a regular basis for months on end, only evil people do that.

Maggiemaybe, please don't ever feel sorry for me, I am the happiest person I know.

I know about injustice having suffered it, which is why I abhor cruelty to children or animals who can't do a thing about it, and sadly have to rely on people who want to 'understand' their murderers

Nonnie, that is so sad. Thank goodness you have the happy family life you deserve now.

nigglynellie, yes I am the oldest of four, and I look exactly like my father. The other three look more like my mother's family.

My grandparents knew what was going on so they had a soft spot for me, but I suffered when I went home as my brother and sisters told my mother tales, and made me feel guilty.

I thought it was normal for my mother to come into our room and tell my sisters bedtime stories and kiss them goodnight.

Once I ventured to ask if I could have a story and my mother told me I was not in their club.

I would have been around eight at the time.

I think she was abused by her parents.. locked in a cellar at night and beaten when she did nothing wrong, so she mirrored their behaviour.

I dote on everyone, not just my own children. their friends tell them they wish I was their mum. Just thinking about my childhood makes my face burn.

On the upside I have such a happy life now - I can't tell you how fortunate I am. Life is lovely for me.
I feel sorry for my mother who was emotionally retarded I know that, but she was an adult and made the choice to be like this, so no understanding from me on that count, and no love either.

I believe one of the characteristics of psychopaths is a lack of empathy, possibly the women weren't damaged as children and they fall into that category. How dangerous therefore to be around children and not to be able to empathise with their most basic needs, the level of neglect, cruelty and lack of compassion is heartbreaking. Such a dear little soul, still a baby really who knew only fear in his short life. Similar to the the other case where a woman fostered an adorable baby girl a little while ago, there seems to be precious little love on offer and her primary motive in fostering or even adopting appeared to be financial gain, surely that alone would have rung some alarm bells somewhere. I understand all these women tried to blame another child in the family, reprehensible blaming their own child for their crime.

I don't believe in the death penalty, I imagine they can expect some horrors coming their way in prison, and although they deserve that, somehow I don't like violence being meted out in this way, it won't mitigate what has already happened. I just hope these revolting people are never allowed near children again.

I'm very sorry to hear about your childhood Nonnie1. I know how lucky I was, and am eternally grateful, that I had an extremely happy child hood, with parents who loved me and whom I deeply loved. However, I was an only child which I think can be easier? Maybe I'm wrong. Where you the eldest? I only ask as I had a friend whose parents for whatever reason always seemed to favour younger siblings. I can remember feeling so sorry for her as misdemeanors mostly imaginary were so often attributed to her bad behaviour. I don't know what happened latterly as we lost touch, house moving, different schools etc, but I do know that it was an unhappy situation, so I do sympathise.
Yes, God or lack of is only my opinion ab, none of us are going to know the truth of the matter till after we are dead, so no body can claim to have a definite answer.

It was me who mentioned the death penalty for these people..

I was abused as a child. I was not neglected in the abusing sense, I was ignored, starved of love, and watched my mother care more my other siblings. I accepted it because I was a child, and thought it was normal.

When I grew older I realised how bloody awful it all was, and as an adult, made up my mind that I would be the polar opposite of my mother, and also the opposite of my siblings who decided I was a trouble causer for kicking off at the injustice which carried on throughout my young adulthood and extended to my own children by my family.

So, in effect we were all abused in some way, although they would say not.

Would I do the same to mine? I had a choice, and so do these people who stamp on a baby's head until it's brains come out.

There is no excuse for cruelty. None. Not ever. I don't want to understand them. What they do to a child is enough for the world to understand that they are evil.

Your opinion niggly, doesn't mean you are right

As far as I'm concerned God and his saints are asleep. Try as I might, having been brought up as a good (?) Anglican, who wouldn't have queried the existence of the almighty, I now in my twilight years find myself just not believing in God, heaven or the saints come to that! Why? Well, life I suppose makes you cynical, and let's face it sadly God doesn't exist. None of us knew anything before we were born and won't know anything after we're dead; so no, that little boy is not with God, his life has been cut off before it began, end of.

Niggly, we know nothing of the two women except for their cruelty to the children. I have no wish to shoot them , am not defending them either, but I do not believe a person of sound mind could torture a child , some choose to say they are evil .

Over and over we hear of these cases and usually one partner is new in the relationship, Hindley did what she did after she became involved with Brady

I am equally horrified at the extreme cruelty suffered by those poor children. I am however very against the death penalty. I wonder why those two women were so damaged as people that these things have happened. I do get comfort knowing that little boy is now at peace with God and will suffer no more. I hope the two siblings are adopted into caring and loving homes and they experience some healing.

I think sustained cruelty towards the vulnerable including animals is difficult for right minded people to comprehend, and that is why there is a gut reaction, including mine, to put these disgusting apologies for human beings up against a wall and shoot them! I know it's not the answer, but what is? To physically and mentally (those snakes!) torture, because that's what it was, three young children, one no more than a baby is just beyond understanding. Are these people evil sadist?, are they mad? What are they that makes them behave like this? Did they tear the wings off flies when they were children? What? How can this behaviour be prevented? What's worse is how many other vulnerables are out there as we speak who are suffering this sort of abuse. ' Mr Tom, I called and called you, but you didn't come' I'm sure a lot of us shed tears at this part of that film. At least that mother had mental problems, these don't appear to have any conscience or qualms about their behaviour whatever! Is that a mental problem or just plain evil?

Hear, hear Annie - their case load is just unimaginable these days. And the Government that has made huge cut backs in the Social work budget must bear some responsibility for this and other cases.

So Marmark, a social worker who has done her/his work load , perhaps a ten hour day , must take on more cases because of staff cut backs ? Have you any idea what they have to cope with on a daily basis ? I think not.

Marmark I agree social workers need to be older adults with life experience, but they need degrees as well. It's an extremely complex job.

I'm afraid social work has never been an attractive career choice and I struggle to think of anything that can make it such. But the continuous media and public 'baying for blood' whenever there is a tragedy of this kind cannot help. I can't think of any other profession where you live in fear of your name being in the headlines as 'the most hated woman in Britain' - which was what happened to the social worker for baby Peter Connelly who had to move house and wear a disguise. Why would anyone want to do such a job when they could earn far more doing almost anything else their level of education would allow. After 40 years I really don't know but I'm glad my children never showed the slightest inclination to follow both parents into the profession.

And just to be clear - I am well aware that the tragedy of Peter Connelly was about what happened to him and not the social workers involved. But please remember that the other side of these tragedies is that to the social workers the children are not just names but living breathing children who they have known and tried their best to help. Social workers do the job because they care, and they will carry the guilt and the blame and the grief for what they feel they did wrong for the rest of their lives. Not for the faint hearted.

As my old boss used to say if we were short staffed,work harder.Ok,in the case of social workers being short staffed,it may take longer,but still do it right.I can't read the details of those abuse cases(and I'm glad I didn't read this one) but let's hope they do suffer in prison.Far too much of this sort of thing going on today.They need older women with experience,you don't need to be endowed with degrees,you often just need comman sense.

Social workers get such a bad press when this sort of horrific news hits the headlines. It's not always justified - as has been said, they are so short staffed. The reason they are short staffed could very well be because they get such a bad press when this sort of horrific news hits the headlines. It's very likely putting many people off this career path - after all, you'd have to be pretty tough to withstand the sort of public onslaught that so many of them have been through.
I don't know the answer. How on earth do you make this career choice more attractive? Even assuming there is the funding available for more social workers?

I think money and shortage of staff is almost certainly linked though

Very good Documentary on Children`s services the other evening. All the social workers were overworked, undervalued and so stressed they were leaving in droves . They seemed to be just treading water , some of them had way over the 27 cases which was supposed to be the maximum . I don`t know what the answer is but the job needs to be made more attractive to encourage people to stay , it didn`t seem to be about money more about short staffing .

I have a niece who is a children's phycologist , she hears the most horrific things but I agree with her that we only learn by listening. The same applies to the abusers, kill them and there is no chance to,learn , to understand why they can carry out such brutal acts.

Social workers have very difficult jobs, short staffed, long hours, serious lack of foster homes and some abusers they deal with are so sly and lie

Every time there's an inquiry we're told lessons will be learnt. We've been told this for decades.The various agencies need to work together, to cross reference their records. Doesn't sound that difficult.
The little boy fell 'off the radar' or some such platitude. No he didn't, no one checked up on him, surely it wasn't that no one cared.
Is it a matter of cash? Is it about the training of social workers? Is it about all of us being more vigilant, more prepared to report suspicions. I don't know.
Are things better somewhere else? Does anyone have answers? I wish I did.