EU - I'm in a quandary

My mum aged 98 says exactly that seaside She said this morning on the phone "anyone who had suffered and gone through a war as she has done would think the EU was worth remaining in for that alone"

It's original set up was for exactly that reason, and still remains so.

WW The top ones are somewhat elitist - have no idea about fees etc but many of them would be very clever and come from a small pool of applicants. I do know a couple of people who went to this type - one translated old French documents into modern French and the other is starting out in the justice system.

I have just driven across the country, and seen many "leave" signs on the roadside, some using the slogan "we want our country back"

I'm not sure who "we" is or why they think leaving the EU will mean they suddenly have "control" of this country. I suspect the slogan is anti immigration. I'm not sure what they mean by having our country "back". Ordinary people will not have control regardless of the result as that will remain in the hands of the rich and powerful, as it always has. The best we can hope for is to work together to make sure working people are protected from the worst excesses of corporate greed.

Our fathers and grandfathers fought and many lost their lives in terrible human conflict in two world wars. We certainly would not have had control of our country if those wars had continued. We need to keep our children and grandchildren safe, and for that we need to work with our European neighbours against threats to our security. We can't do that on our own, and never have.

Pay!!!!!

Are all these politicians drawn from all levels of society? Or is it based on their ability to pat? welshwife

Well was that it?

BBC News has just had a live feed to what was hailed as the big guns coming out for the ' Labour IN campaign'. Heidi Alexander introduced Corbyn against a back drop of Labour Shadow Cabinet figures , MP's ,top Union Leaders.

Corbyn spoke for about 3 minutes. Have I missed something?

In France all the politicians and people in big Givt jobs got to a special sort of University. Only these graduates get the jobs. Same thing really except it happens later in the Education system.

I think you all misunderstand the concept of elite in the way I understand it. There is nothing elite about going to Roedean or Beneden. I have a couple of friends who attended Roedean, which isn't surprising as I live near to the school. You are using the term elite to mean something quite different.

Perhaps whitewave thinks that I am elite? That I was born to wealthy parents and educated at Roedean or Benenden and sneer at the working classes? If she met me she might be disabused of that.

There is as much talent for leadership of the country in city centre comprehensives as in schools like Eton (good grief, doesn't anyone know the names of any others?) but their pupils probably don't have parents who have moved in circles where that is considered a possiblity. Therefore they are not exposed to casual references to relations in parliament from an early age, and it is not in their viw of "things I could do".

If you were concerned that too many tennis stars and champions came from one source, from one trainer or one section of society - perhaps the affluent upper middle classes with a tennis court in their large garden - how would you make sure that those who did not have those advantages had the same chances?

Would you blame the size of the garden and ban private courts? Would you fix a quota limiting the number of players from that trainer or anyone whose garden was bigger than average? That might cut down some of the players, but it wouldn't produce a new crop from elsewhere.

Or would you provide courts where everyone could bash a ball around, with experienced players to play against who demonstrated the shots and gave them increasingly difficult opponents to learn how to play effectively against?

Would you develop a culture where it was Ok to be interested in the mechanics of the game, where it was not being a nerd to consider whether a drop shot was the best approach to a certain situation or was that just building up trouble for future shots?

Where the philosophy, strategy and tactics of previous games were analysed for their reasons and effectiveness, without just damning the player for being inconsiderate in hitting that smash in the second game of the third set?

Where it was considered normal to be interested in the game, and not just so as to annihilate the players from that elite tennis academy in the next town, but to play as best you could, for the sake of the game and your own pride and satisfaction.

They are for some people. Another name for it is inverted snobbery "I am better than you because I am not posh" is exactly as snobbish as "I am better than you because I am posh"

Surely 'posh' and 'elite* are not synonyms and cannot be used interchangeably?

No it doesn't nell The concept of elite has nothing to do with personal preferences!

I think it's sad that a love of classical music labels you as elite. I like a lot of music but I have a particular love of classical music, I also read serious books, mostly historical biographies or an account of life under the Stuarts, that sort of thing, and we both love the arts. DH and I also live in a very modest bungalow, on a very modest pension, entirely our own fault for not being more pension savvy in our youth. Does this love of the above automatically make us posh, (that awful word!) elite? surely not?!

There is a whole shaft of academic research to provide evidence of this inequality and unfairness.

bags the assumption that those from expensive fee paying schools are trained and therefore suitable to be leaders is an elitist argument. Children from these schools are over represented in certain professions. Money and networking is the key.

Yes, I think victim culture is probably a better description.

I'd say victim culture rather than blame culture, but perhaps they are two sides of the same coin.

Plus, there are many, many leadership positions in society that, in the end, are just as important as political ones in shaping society. Politics is a lot but it isn't everything.

And Neil Kinnock.

Some of the 'natives' in the Lancashire town where I grew up thought the secondary schools my siblings and I went to were posh. They were ordinary, bog-standard state grammar schools. They are now comprehensives.

People's notions of posh are sometimes very weird.

Also, why is posh used as if it were an insult? Is it Eton schoolkids' fault if they are 'posh'?

Blame culture. Whining "it's not fair!" culture. If you can't beat them, join them. Anyone with enough ambition, drive, intelligence, political nous can aim at being prime minister. How else could Thatcher and Major be explained?

Many prominent and successful politicians with a state school education of course went to grammar schools some of which have gone independent because of opposition from both political wings.
"Posh Eton boys" is such an easy cliche to trot out.

Unlike the states anyone with the will and drive could, theoretically, become PM, even a greengricer's daughter or the adopted son of an Aberdeen fishmonger.

In reality most of the country do not want to be actively involved in politics, locally or nationally.

You haven't explained why you say elegran's viewpoint is elitist? I'd love to know how you managed to see it as that. I didn't. In particular I didn't see any evidence of an assumption on elegran's part that "95% of the country do not have the qualities to run the country".

Actually though, speaking for myself, it wouldn't surprise in the least if it were to be discovered that 95% or a slightly lower percentage of the population don't have the qualities necessary, or the desire, to run the country. But I wouldn't regard that as a failing in the 90 or so percentage, if it were to prove the case, just normal.

Waits for someone to misinterpret what I've said as well.

What you are talking about was specifically developed when Britain ran an Empire. We have thankfully moved on since then, although some undoubtedly regret it.

I wonder how the rest of the world find their leaders without the seemingly glorious advantage that is Eton

I din't say that. I never even said that it was only those from public schools that did well in the Ten Tors.

My own grandson (ged 14 then) did the challenge in 2013 and his team did well - one of the six had to drop out with an injury, and another told the remaining four to go on without him on the final leg, as he was was holding them back and they would not have finished in time (Captain Oates!), but the four of them finished (knackered) and got their medals. They were from an ordinary secondary school, not elitist at all.

I said that those who could lead and work as a team did well. Yes, there are outstanding examples of leaders who did not have the benefit of a public school education, but so are there outstanding examples of people doing well in other fields who did not have the benefit of early training in those fields. Leadership is specifically taught in public schools, but the ability to lead is innate in many people. However, it flowers better if nurtured. I did not say that ONLY one type of schooling breeds leaders. There are state schools which do, but there is no overall policy to develop future leaders of society.