EU - I'm in a quandary

I am not sure that anyone has drawn attention yet to the letter sent to the Guardian by more than three hundred prominent historians, including Ian Kershaw, Juliet Gardiner, Simon Schama and Niall Ferguson.
“As historians of Britain and of Europe, we believe that Britain has had in the past, and will have in the future, an irreplaceable role to play in Europe,” the letter says.
“On 23 June, we face a choice: to cast ourselves adrift, condemning ourselves to irrelevance and Europe to division and weakness; or to reaffirm our commitment to the EU and stiffen the cohesion of our continent in a dangerous world.”
I found that a very powerful argument for remain.

I have no argument with what you say Jess until I get to your final point. The association of individuals with principle.
Too often we fall for the adage that "my enemy's enemy is my friend" as for instance in WW II or the Middle East where it was a dangerous fallacy, but if I am looking at individuals my gut feeling is that there isn't a ha'porth to choose between them. Cameron and Osborne are unlikely bedfellows for Corbyn and let's not be fooled by any rapprochement there. DC is out to save his career, Osborne is hoping that if DC falls (as he may well do regardless of the outcome) but we vote to remain, he is in with a chance. BJ has tossed a coin to decide which way to go and as always an opportunist is a man with an eye for the main chance, Farage foolishly thinks he might wangle a toehold of influence, Gove is flying a kite, again predicated on DC coming a cropper.
Where in all of this, is there any leadership or, even better, statesmanship?

I've been helping the Stronger In campaign and would like to make the observation that most men seem very decided and an awful lot of women are not.
Here are two good reasons to vote Remain:
1. Nearly all the economic super-brains on the planet are predicting that we will have at least a mini recession if we leave. Lack of business confidence, consequent lack of investment and expansion, lack of foreign investment will things settle down.
Nobody can predict how long this will last - but we do know it will take a couple of years before we actually leave, and during this time there will be a cloud hanging over the UK economy.
2. We benefit from hard-won workers rights in the EU and women have been the biggest beneficiary (because they were behind men and because they benefit more from parental leave - and also because more of them are part-time and temps). These rights could easily disappear post exit. So for the sake of younger women we should vote Remain.
And if these two logical reasons don't help, here's a more intuitive one: look at the people leading the Leave campaign. Farage, Boris and Gove. How bad could a country run by this unholy alliance be? There would be no obligation to have a general election for another 4 years.

Those from manufacturing, mining etc are often retrained to work in other industries as the have the right work ethic, they want to work. They may however have to re-locate. The older generation are often unwilling to re-locate, whereas the younger generation are willing to re-locate. Our two children have moved with their jobs more time than I can remember, and both are likely to move again soon with their jobs.

And also that some unemployed people have neither the necessary training or qualifications, or abilities- or are unwilling to take on those jobs, and some may even find it unable to get out of bed in the morning...

They say the same here where I live, but you can't fill a vacancy for an experienced and well trained watch maker or engineer with an unqualified unemployed person. And those unemplyed will not work as carers and ancilliaries in OAP homes or hospitals - which is just as well in many cases as they would be totally unsuitable. You can train or re-train a small proportion- but it is not just as simple as just say 'use the local unemployed' - I'm sure you are aware of that.

Many of those would have been employed in the manufacturing industries, mines, etc - those jobs just do not exist anymore and there is a proportion of people who just are practically unemployable. Sad- true.

"Why not employ British workers anyway? We're always being told that there are still plenty of unemployed."

The problem here is that IMO the "unemployed" are mostly between jobs, ie redundant people that are likely to become employed in a short period),school leavers, ex students with too high expectations or long term unemployed for many reasons (disability, not wanting to work etc)
Even when we get large companies like BHS close, those that are made redundant will find new jobs simply because whilst BHS has gone other companies will expand to fill the gap.

Our son lives and works in one of the higher unemployed areas, yet he cannot recruit the staff the company needs, they almost always have vacancies and try to recruit nationwide. The chances are that they will have to recruit immigrant labour from the EU or elsewhere. Many companies in that area are in a similar position.

Telling someone to calm down isn't conducive to debate - reminiscent of David Cameron's behaviour towards a female MP.

I wasn't referring to you in particular, Riverwalk, so calm down!

You know nothing of my politics daphne and whether in the past I would have accommodated Tony Benn's thoughts.

There are many admirers of TB on this forum - in fact he has been eulogized a number of times.

I was merely emphasising how difficult this referendum is for some us. Of course many people are so convinced of their choice that they don't need to consider any other views.

Filipino nurses are trained at huge cost by their own country, which is very poor- and then we 'steal' them. So many leave their children behind with grandmothers too.

And in turn, our nurses are poached by the increasing private health care system in the UK, and also abroad where they have much better conditions and much higher salaries...

The First Past the Post system has certainly not felt very democratic to me. In 39 years, well 38 as I became British a bit later- my vote has always automatically ended up in the bin- and never ever counted- as I lived in a Constituency that didn't match my political choice, or that of DH.

Our votes did count in local election. I voted everytime out of principle, knowing full well that it was futile and useless. Not a good way to encourage people participation!

Having a very influential non-elected chamber, The Lords- is hardly democratic either.

At least MEPs are voted in by the people- not the EU fault so few ever bother- than complain ...

Filipino care workers almost certainly wouldn't be allowed to work in the UK if we adopted a points system. The UK only needs to change its rules, which it's perfectly entitled to do, if it's that desperate. Why not employ British workers anyway? We're always being told that there are still plenty of unemployed.

It would be completely different if the Filipinos were qualified nurses. Shrewsbury and Telford Hospital NHS Trust has just made 76 job offers to Filipino nurses and more are going to be recruited, because nurses are on the 'wanted' list.

www.shropshirestar.com/news/2016/04/02/over-70-nurses-from-philippines-offered-jobs-at-shropshire-hospitals/

That would be great if it were true, but isn't.

The votes of the vast majority of people in the UK don't count as a result of the first past the post system. I don't think we have ever had a government supported by over half of voters - certainly not since WW2.

Governments have shown time and again that they don't listen.

The UK can only change its government every five years; it gets away with what it wants for at least four of those five years. By the time a new government ios elected, it's tool late to go back.

'Democracy' is a much overused word when describing the political system in the UK. Some other European countries have a much more democratic and accountable system. Even the EU has a system which is more democratic than the UK.

Tony Benn was a dreamer and it's ironic that so many people who wouldn't have given him the time of day when he was younger latch on to what he said as he became older.

"My view of the EU has always been not that I am hostile to foreigners but I am in favour of democracy. I think they are building an empire and want us to be part of that empire, and I don't want that." On leaving the European Community

"When I saw how the European Union was developing, it was very obvious what they had in mind was not democratic. In Britain, you vote for a government so the government has to listen to you, and if you don't like it you can change it." On democracy in Europe

Tony Benn 2014

we have to make sure that their language skills are up to the job, which means employing people from all over the world, and not giving first dibs to EU countries.Often, Indian nurses and doctors have excellent English, albeit with an accent.The accent is not a problem as long as they can speak and understand English.

Are you still in a quandary Riverwalk?

I did not say they should - I asked what you would do about it to make sure their English was good enough whatever their nationality. The next question would be how do you get enough people to staff the hospitals if you need to employ many foreign nationals - wherever they are from. There are even differences in the meaning of words with Brits and Americans or indeed our Aussie friends. Most EU nationals have learned English and most are good at it - far better than most Brits are at speaking another language.

It's just too important to have mix ups because of language difficulties.

Welshwife Nobody should be employed in a hospital if their English isn't up to scratch!

Roses how would you ensure that the language skills of any non -British national was up to scratch in a UK hospital? Many of the staff come from foreign shores. - not just the EU so the language problem can be from any of them and many of them who think they speak English are in fact almost unintelligible to UK patients - this has often been the case with medical practitioners from the Indian sub continent and Africa.

Boris is an arse - I'm not interested in what he has to say.

Nor am I swayed by half a Mars Bar - rather like being told that the royal family cost us tuppence ha'penny per head or some other such nonsense.

This is interesting:

Repaint the Vote Leave Battlebus

Boris Johnson says we send £350 million a week to Brussels. He also says we can use that money to save the NHS. Neither claim is true.

Margaret Thatcher secured a discount on our payment to the EU. When you take account of that and money that comes back to Britain, our membership costs 30p per person per day. That’s half the price of a Mars bar. And we get more than 30p a day back in benefits.

Boris also doesn’t say that EU migrants support the NHS. They pay more in taxes than they use public services. What’s more, if we left, we’d suffer such an economic shock that we’d have less money to spend on the NHS, not more.

Sign our petition to get Boris to re-paint his battlebus without glossing over the facts.

Yes, his head has been held under the water Riverwalk until he mutters a few words of praise for the EU.

Watching Cameron, Osborne & Corbyn over the past few months I just get the feeling that their hearts aren't really in this and they don't have any true enthusiasm for the EU.

I get the impression that JC in particular is being dragged to the trough and forced to drink.