EU - I'm in a quandary

Wouldn't Farage have to get his seat back before he could move on to the Lords? And Ian Duncan Smith is out of the government now. He resigned. (to ww)

Interesting about the letter signed by MPs telling Cameron it is his duty to stay on, whichever way it goes.

mainlymacro.blogspot.co.uk/2016/06/why-defeating-brexit-is-so-important.html

About experts.

30 years ago is very recent- I think we possibly here were all grown-up adults already- so very much our generation.

This talk of English workers going to Germany led me to an article which stated that in 1983 Helmut Kohl was offering foreigners money to go home. Then they had an about face and had to get them back.
Germany operated a points system on immigrants. There were some who went so far as not wanting children over 6 yrs to have entry because they were too old after that to assimilate into German society.
And some think that we are hard faced.

1983? (When it started). Over 30 years ago...

Talking about foreign workers undercutting the locals- can you remember Auf Wiedersehen Pet- it was not that long ago.

It has also been muddied by confusion between the movement here from the EU countries of people working (and paying taxes) or studying (and paying tuition fees) and the immigration to the UK of desperate people, without work, fleeing troubles in their home country or escaping from grinding poverty and hoping to find the streets here paved with gold.

You are right Elegran. This debate has been confused because facts which can be verified (eg by fullfacts) have been confused with opinions and predictions about the future.

Go with the proven facts and vote REMAIN

You do have a point there Maggiemaybe and Elegran!

I don't care what happens to any of them after the result is known. That's their problem.

It depends whether they are experts on knowing facts (like legally binding matters, procedures, or recorded, unmassaged, statistics) or on having opinions (like what they think is likely to happen if blah blah blah)

The fact that Gove doesn't like experts is probably why we now have so many unqualified people "teaching" our children. Who needs training and qualifications, eh?

I am another one who has gone off "experts".

I also know that for one "expert" on something, there is another one who says quite a lot different about the subject.

They haven't a clue what to do.
Gove will think he knows best
Johnson will waffle and keep changing his mind
Whittingdale will put himself in charge of all broadcasting and take total control
IDS will shed crocodile tears and introduce an American benefit system
Patel will make it quite clear that she is clear that all workers should have no rights
Farage will go down the pub and expect free drink and fags as he has lost his income from the job he never did, we will of course have to call him sir as the Lord's will be benefiting from his entry.

Experts say that if we leave, Gove will need help from experts.
That should prove interesting.

Reasons to vote remain - Gove has said if remain wins, he will leave the government!

Another group of experts (this time leading architects and designers) add to the weight of experts on the REMAIN side.

www.dezeen.com/2016/06/22/brexit-british-architects-designers-european-union-eu-referendum-vote-remain-leave/

I know Michael Gove has told us to ignore experts - economists, business people, scientists, lawyers, military and security experts........I know, I know - but is it actually possible that he knows better than all of them?

Am I the only one who needs 8 hours sleep?
(looking at the time of some of the posts)

Did my homework a few months ago. Listened to various sides. Listened to my friends/family (although we are similar usually in our outlook, I've never experienced such a family divide). Tried to ignore the hype, especially the tasteless hype. Then made up my mind based on what I felt was best for our country, long term. The only grey area, I found, when reading up, was the economy. If the so called 'experts' don't agree, not even unbiased lecturers, and my not being an economist; then I thought we could safely assume it's a bit of an unknown. But our economy isn't weak, so sure it will survive either way. I've voted now. So be it. Let's hope whatever happens, everyone can put their differences aside and hope the country prospers with no 'sour grapes'.

More or less what I said, joelsnan

Elegran There is absolutely nothing wrong with profit provided it's generation is not to the detriment of those who generate it and not solely for the benefit of those who receive it. I had a business myself for 10 years so had to generate profit to live and despite very hard work I never 'rolled in cash' because unfortunately I have a strong social conscience which would not allow me to 'rip folks off'.

Good morning to you JessM and finally a lovely, bright, warm one too.
I certainly do not subscribe to your apocalyptic vision of Brexit Britain even based upon naive statements by career politicians. To generate the productivity required by either side Remain or Brexit, you have to have the cooperation and buy in of the workforce. Do you think any government at this crucial point would jeapordise this? Take a look across the channel and see what is happening in France as they try to impose terms less favourable than the status quo, which incidentally are still better than ours.
Additionally, when I went to bed last night I slept in the knowledge that I lived in a democratically elected state where MPs were elected by the masses, I do not anticipate a coup by Gove, Johnson et al on Friday also I live by tenets such as employment law which have been enacted following due process, I anticipate due process will continue.
The masses have rejected governments before who have ignore the populous I.e. The Conservatives in the 1970. It could be done again.

Going back to 'the builder" and cheaper employment for EU citizens it is probably , like a lot of companies use, to do with the fact the EU HAS CREATED SUCH A SHAMBOLIC CASE for employers to obtain 'cheap labour' through the 'POSTING OF WORKERS DIRECTIVE'.

'Currently, posted workers are already subject to the same rules as host Member State employees in certain fields, such as health and safety. However, the employer is not obliged to pay a posted worker more than the minimum rate of pay set by the host country. This can create wage differences between posted and local workers and potentially lead to unfair competition between companies. This means that posted workers are often remunerated less than other workers for the same job'.

Corbyn has been giving the impression during his speeches to stay and fight from within the EU for Workers Rights and has indeed mentioned the Posting of Workers Directive on numerous occassions, he says we will stop this by being stronger working together 'from within the EU'but in fact there are already moves to 'Reform the Posting of Workers Directive' anyway and the link of 8th March details this.

'From now on, all the rules on remuneration that are applied generally to local workers will also have to be granted to posted workers. Remuneration will not only include the minimum rates of pay, but also other elements such as bonuses or allowances where applicable. Member States will be required to specify in a transparent way the different elements of how remuneration is composed on their territory. Rules set by law or universally applicable collective agreements become mandatory for posted workers in all economic sectors. The proposal also gives the possibility to Member States to provide that subcontractors need to grant their workers the same pay as the main contractor. Nevertheless this can only be done in a non-discriminatory way: the same rule must apply to national and cross-border subcontractors.
The proposal will also ensure that national rules on temporary agency work apply when agencies established abroad post workers.
Finally, if the duration of posting exceeds 24 months, the labour law conditions of the host Member States will have to be applied, where this is favourable to the posted worker.
These changes will provide better protection for workers, more transparency and legal certainty and ensure a level playing field between domestic and posting firms while in full respect of Member States' wage-bargaining systems.'

europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-16-466_en.htm

If this comes about it will possibly cause the effect that some are saying will be the outcome if we we 'Brexit' , loosing EU workers as there would be no advantage to UK employers not to hire from within the UK. So in or out there could be an employment issue arising.

The point that I do not understand is how so many people who believe they are the 'doyennes' of social justice have turned on a sixpence and are insisting the EU has been good for Workers Rights. Really!

Good morning Joelsnan and a very good morning to you all.
On the 21st May, in a speech to the Institute of Directors, Priti Patel said very clearly that leaving the EU would enable a post-Brexit Tory government to relieve employers of the burden of employment rights and save them lots of money. Which, she naively suggested they would re-invest in their businesses and "create more jobs". (Or invest the profits off-shore/buy a yacht/buy another holiday home)

Nothing could be clearer than this statement of intent. As soon as possible after a leave vote, with Boris/Gove/Patel in charge, they would start repealing UK employment law.
The fact that the UK might have improved workers rights in the past has nothing to do with it. The past is, as we know, another country, in which they did things differently. We were the first industrialised nation and UK unions fought long and hard for those rights. Times have changed in so many ways.

The consequences of reducing these rights are easy to work out:
Part-time workers would no longer be entitled to the same pay and conditions as full timers.
Temps - and there are vast numbers of young, and older, people working on temporary contracts these days, would lost their rights to holiday pay and other things (as per EU legislation in 2011)
Maternity benefits and other benefits for parents would be reduced.
These are my top 3 predictions - there would be more judging from the numbers she quoted. And going on from that, the more unscrupulous employers - the kind that are already making hay with zero hours contracts etc - would start implementing changes. Women, I believe would be hardest hit as more of them are part-timers and temps.
Big ethical/unionised employers are unlikely to try to change the contracts of employment of their existing staff. However if they have competitors who are cutting staff costs they would be under pressure to change their policies for new recruits.
I think this is a far greater threat to UK workers than EU migrants who tend to fill gaps in the employment needs of the country, improve their English and then go home. (in the same way as lots of Australian and NZ young people do )
Please GN members - if you are still undecided, think about your grandchildren and the working world they will inherit and don't vote away their employment rights today.

Do you like Cameron and Osborne now?

obieone, I can't abide either of them, but stand them next to Nigel Farage, Michael Gove and Boris Johnson and they look like guardians of common sense and decency.