Can a referendum be valid if won on lies?

@niggly post 18.12.12

No, I know they can't, which is why (as a comprehensive school teacher for nearly 30 years) I always tried to develop EVERY pupil, whatever his/her ability. Ironically, pupil-centred education became much derided. I tried to offer opportunities to all my pupils, but didn't look down on them if they chose not to take those opportunities.

However, I object to those people who chose not to take the opportunities looking down on people who tried to offer the opportunities and succeeded in becoming 'experts' through sheer hard work and scholarship. I think there are people who wallow in being a victim.

I also object to people who, through privilege, accident of birth and luck in life, look down on those less fortunate than themselves, including 'I'm alright Jack' types.

Make of that what you will!

.....and, I might not have been marching and campaigning when I was in my early twenties, but I've been fighting and campaigning ever since for what I think is right and just, and some of you can laugh at me as much as you like but I'll keep on fighting this. It's for my children and grandchildren and yours too....

He did say that he'd secured an agreement whereby immigrants would not be eligible for benefit until they'd been here (and worked) for 4 years but that it won't go through now because of us leaving the EU. I think he said that when DD and the audience were questioning him. But, as with most things in the remain campaign they fell on deaf ears because they weren't exciting enough (and couldn't be fitted into a nice little soundbite). And he couldn't fit in the words 'take back control'.' I've managed to take back some control' doesn't look very good on the side of a bus. Those who keep telling us to look on the positive side could only take negative things away from the negotiations; you rarely get 100% of what you want in negotiations...it's all about compromises (also not very exciting).

It is a problem indeed. Especially when any attempt at giving useful, valid and expert information is either deemed boring or bullying- and when even top politicians tell people not to inform themselves and listen to expert advice.

People do not need formal qualifications to make informed decisions, just an open mind and a bit of time and patience.

Well that's as maybe dd, but although I heard DC speak on numerous occasions during the campaign, I didn't hear one word about his success in those negotiations and neither did anyone I know. I would have thought it would have been his trump card, and used again and again, but perhaps I and others were asleep at that particular point.
I'm not sure dd that we can have a system that requires people to have a certain knowledge of politics else they forfit their vote!! Smacks a bit of paternalism! On the other hand politics today are so complex, how can anyone other than the educated understand what they're voting for?! tis a problem!

I was obviously replying to durhamjen's dig at 18.22 granjura.

your words Ana - sadly. People are hurting, and hurting badly, because of what this Governement has done, to education, to the NHS, to cuts, to care, to social services- and when people are hurting, they need to find culprits to hang their anger on- and Farage, and to some extent Boris and others- handed them immigration on a plate.

Yes, because the population of England and Wales is obviously so thick...

And leave them all in the lurch now, granjura.
Never had a plan, just a few simple to understand slogans.

Yes, Tegan, obviously the remain side used too many syllables in their messages, so they couldn't be understood.

Oh and 'Independence Day' - Boris never answered a single question in that debate, waffled and didn't have a clue- but he knew how to win the people and get a standing ovation- yep simple- the lying toad.

I don't remember Cameron saying that...oh, but of course he was in the Remain camp, wasn't he? Still spreading fear and dread though.

Our political masters have learned how to put things into simple language I fear. 'Take back control', and 'we want our country back'. Say that enough times and it's all they need to do to get the votes they want.

Where were you in February, niggly, when Cameron came back from the EU and told us about all the negotiations he had had and the concessions he had been given by the EU?
You cannot blame Cameron for the fact that you never knew. Lots of us did.

Well dd I certainly don't think that of your grandfather. I think he obviously worked hard and deserved where he got, no doubt about it. My great grandfathers father(!) was a Parchment Maker, his father a Fellmonger. G.father came from Bath to Oxford in 1872 became a Master Tailor, opened a Gentlemans Outfitters Establishment (!) did extremely well, became an Alderman, a big house complete with staff! a pillar of society; Good for him. I too feel proud of the way he pulled himself up from virtually no where,but not everyone can do that.

Still true today?

www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6lV-uqpclc

For once I agree with you, niggly. I despair at anti-intellectualism. The internet has exposed us to all sorts of fruitloops who profess to be 'experts' on everything from diet to cars. However, some people really can claim some expertise, especially if they're professors at a British university, and I, for one, am willing to learn from them.

If people don't want to know how anything works, that's their choice, but I believe they've given up the right to have a say. I still have the impression that the referendum vote was for some people a protest vote. I can't blame them for wanting to protest, but I think they chose the wrong means to do so, because they're not going to achieve or gain anything and could end up even worse off and more frustrated. It makes it even worse to know that some of this opinion was 'manipulated' by people with big money for their own ends. It makes a mockery of democracy when people can 'buy' votes.

It's sad that people see society as 'them and us', because it doesn't have to be like that. My paternal grandfather came from a fishing family in the North East, but did well at school, took an exam to get into the civil service, was promoted and ended up as the head of his department and was given a CBE for his efforts. I've always been proud of his achievement and am disappointed that apparently I should now despise him for being a rider on the gravy train.

But were they given facts in plain English - or just lies in plain English.

Lies about the NHS.
Lies about immigration.
Lies about Laws and Rules.

Plain English is great indeed- as long as it tells the truth.

Trouble is, that that a good proportion of the population don't have or even want to have a clue what politicians,intellectuals, the great and the good are talking about! They want facts in plain english that can be easily understood! Complicated facts and figures, think tanks and articles about this that,the other and the rest are meaningless to lots of folk who aren't university educated,haven't read Wilfred Owen or Chaucer, or want to! Don't understand ratio's, and the ins and outs of the G7, the WTO or want to! If only our political masters could understand this and explain things more simply without being patronising we might well not be where we are. People are seeing society more than ever, as 'them and us' almost to the point of master and servant!

Who? Has anybody ever said that?

That's what some would like Ana

And as ever, everyone has the right to post on whatever threads they wish. I do hope no one's trying to impose a 'don't post unless you agree with us' rule on this thread as well...

No, I don't have to be involved but I don't need your permission either Tegan

I'm finding you all rather ridiculous. What is then point?

What's done is done. Just get over it.

As ever, you don't have to be involved in these threads, unless you take a perverse delight in being irritated by them.

Be bored Anya- and yes it can btw.

In the meantime, 1000s and 1000s are marching in peace in London in support of Europe, including 1000s of Liberal Democrats- vast numbers have joined in last few days.

For those who feel the same re Europe, do join a Facebook group called The 48% and join the ranks.