Who said immigrants have to go back?

If there were no middle ground, there would be a lot fewer problems in the world! Everything would be instantly recognisable to all as right or wrong, and no-one would need to apply their brains at all! what a lot of time and agony would be saved. All would be for the best, in the best of all possible worlds.

Perhaps we should appoint one world High Dictator, who made incontrovertible rulings on everything, and anyone who discovered evidence of anything different had their mind wiped clean of such notions and their existence expunged from the official records. We could call them a non-person. We could call the High Dictator Big Brother.

I've just come back from Tesco and returned to the thread.

What a lot of people read into a post the exact opposite of what the poster said!

What a lot of people are convinced that they are going to disagree, so they do, whatever the actual post says!

there is not here is

I understand what bags is saying. Sometimes there is no black or white. You can study a thing carefully and still come to the conclusion...that here is no definite conclusion.

I wasn't contradicting anyone or arguing with anyone when I talked about expert uncertainty. I was adding a neutral piece of experiential information.

Or, sorry, neutrality isn't allowed. One has to take sides.

Idiocy.

I've a feeling that loopy understands what I've just been saying. I've also a feeling that people who don't start by assuming I'm saying something that contradicts them, or that they won't like, usually understand me too. And those people will also just ask me to clarify anything that isn't clear to them rather than immediately jumping to the wrong conclusion.

thatbags, I worked out about 3 weeks ago, that 'this constant misunderstanding, this constant making something mean what it doesn't say or even imply' is utterly deiberate, and they[about 8 of them] know exactly what they are doing and saying and why.

Perhaps you should be more straightforward, bags, in saying what you mean.

varian, please don't advise me to do something I've never said I wouldn't do! Which, in fact, I said I would do!

It's got to be deliberate, this constant misunderstanding, this constant making something mean what it doesn't say or even imply!

One wonders why

Can't read through all that. I must be getting obie disease.
However, I think this might interest some of you.

"Medium-term growth will also likely be weaker due to less favourable terms for exports to the EU, lower immigration and a reduction in foreign direct investment."

That's why Fitch has given the UK a lower credit rating, because we do not want immigrants, and many of them are going to leave.
Some experts did tell us that might happen, but those who do not listen to experts said we would be okay and were financially sound - and were listened to.
Sorry if it's been put on another thread already.

Thatbags please listen to experts when they have hard and fast expertese and present you with facts.

If we were faced with a ticking bomb and we had a bomb dosposal expert standing by would it not be better to let him difuse the bomb rather than have a show of hands to decide ehether to cut the blue wire or the green wire?

Yes, I do thatbags, my degree necessitated critical analysis of nursing papers.....and I hate to think how tortuous some were!

Does nobody else read essays and stuff about various topics in which the writer looks at both or even multiple sides of a question so that at the end their conclusion is 'muddy', uncertain, undecided?

And I can say "sometimes I think" something because that is the exact truth and I know the words with which to do it. Stop being so literal! So wanting a right or wrong. There's mud in the middle!

SO TO SPEAK!

I said I sometimes think the undecideds are the most educated because I suspect that sometimes, the more one knows about a thing the less absolute one feels one's knowledge is when practical considerations and possible fall outs are taken into account.

Saying "sometimes I think" is expressing an mere opinion, not stating something absolutely factual.

Don't be silly, ww. Again.

I didn't say I wouldn't turn to experts in whatever field. I simply described my experience with ones I've met and known quite well. Where facts are truly facts there isn't a problem but even in the subject areas you mention not all experts agree about what is the 'right' or best approach. Plus, also in those examples, what else will be affected has to be considered and sometimes even experts get wrong what they think effects will be on other species.

@thatbags

I really don't understand how you can say that the undecideds are the most educated on a given subject.

Indeed! That's why it's as well to be wary of people why claim to know the one and only answer. It's far better to seek out facts from raw data or first hand sources then make up your own mind. What 'experts' will have done is draw together facts from various sources and if you've done your homework, you can evaluate what they say. Expertise can be checked by researching an expert's background and legitimacy.

thatbags so if you wanted say to build a new flood defence, or construct a new wild life habitat or ensure fish nurseries are cared for and protected - what would you do? Turn to someone with expertise in the subject or say oh clearly there will be layers of bias in this subject, so I'll bumble ahead and do my own thing?

This argument falls at the first hurdle.

I sometimes suspect that the undecideds (some of them anyway) are the most educated on any given subject that has a vote attached to it. Another case of it never being simply a black or white decision where complex human arrangements are the issue.

of not off

Sorry. Superfluous 'too’

Experts are also often very self-deprecating about their expertise too because they know how much they don't know and can't be sure off.

obi said: "[Experts] are the first people to tell others that there are many layers of bias and politics going on in unis, and research centres, right across many areas and subjects".

This is true in my experience too.

Lurkers would have read your posts. To be honest, I can't even remember what points you made, but I know some posters came out with outright myths and lies. A number of posters, including me, attempted to debunk those myths with facts. I don't remember if you came up with any convincing arguments. Sorry!