Wolf whistling - a hate crime ??

Pedantry alert: the victim is female and was, therefore, being targeted because of her sexual orientation

No, because of her gender.

Sexual orientation is different from gender. Orientation is about whether one is heterosexual, homosexual, or a mixture of the two.

Just to confuse the issue further, there is now talk of gender uncertainty, but gender and sexual orientation still remain separate things.

Well who would be a man eh. Reading through it seems some see wolf whistling as flattery and some as a floggable offence. I do resent the implication that only men without brains wolf whistle. I had a long relationship with a surveyor who wolf whistled me back in the day. And only women without brains enjoy it? There is a 'thick line' between wolf whistles or admiring glances and groping or harassment. Most women know the difference. So for those of you who have enjoyed a wolf whistle, and still enjoy it (I'm so envious!) good luck to you. If you don't. Ignore and carry on walking. Or maybe you never got them. Sour grapes!

But this girl wasn't dressed provocatively, wasn't drunk or using foul language - she was going to work.

In any case, no female who acts in an 'unladylike' way is 'asking for it'.

No, it's ridiculous to compare asking somebody out in a public place and unwanted wolf whistles/lewd comments. If the girl says that she doesn't want to go out and the person persists, it could well be seen as harrassment and rightly so.

Just because you or anybody else think that behaviour is non-threatening, doesn't mean that another person doesn't see it as harrassment.

If someone wolf whistled in my vicinity, I'd either ignore it or glance around looking for an attractive person who's getting the admiration! I think it's a bit sad that we've come so far from the innocent days of men appreciating a pretty girl and showing it without pressure. They never swarmed down their ladders or made lewd comments in the old days. Sadly, more and more people appear to be brought up with no manners or respect.

Also, with the march of militant feminism, women seem to want to demonstrate their equality by adopting all the worst kind of boorish behaviour exhibited by a minority of men. They dress in next to nothing, get hopelessly drunk, fall over and vomit in the gutter, use foul language, have one night stands with total strangers and cry rape when they wake up from a drunken stupor in some anonymous guy's bed.

Rant over ?

How about campaigning to increase the number of police officers?

I don't think it's nonsense to report unwanted texts, which in some cases are revolting and threatening. This case wasn't just about wolf whistles.

@Kittens and knittings.

I am afraid you miss my point completely.

My posting was to emphasise that Nottingham City police already do not have the time and resources to deal with existing levels of crime in this city.
That they did not record my incident correctly was a very deliberate breach to cover over their late response time,due to lack of personnel.

They give out crime numbers over the telephone,again because there are not enough officers/resources.

It is therefore a nonsense to spend what time and resources they do have on wolf whistling and receiving unwanted texts.
As someone posted locally...will it be an offence to ask a girl out in the street?

Straightforward wolf whistling is not a hate crime, or even harassment in my book.
Still get the odd one so glad I make the effort. A woman stopped me at the airport last week with her daughter, said they thought I was v stylish and the daughter (24) said she hoped she'd be the same when she was my age. I didn't tell her I was 69 and was dead chuffed. Back to healthy eating next week

PS. Meant to say that harrassment is not regarded as a crime, unless it goes to court and a Harrassment Order is issued and, even then, only becomes a crime if the Harrassment Order is broken.

I'm no lawyer, but as far as I know, the difference between harrassment and a hate crime is that "A Hate Incident is any incident which the victim, or anyone else, thinks is based on someones prejudice towards them because of their race, religion, sexual orientation, disability or because they are transgender." (according to the CPS)

I explained somewhere at the top of this thread what the police told me about harrassment. It takes a long time for something to be done and the police's first step will be to issue an unofficial warning. It also needs to happen at least twice. The logic is that people need to be told that their behaviour is causing somebody grief. If they're not told, they don't know.

However, if an incident is classified as a 'hate incident' it's fast-tracked and has to be recorded, in case it escalates. I guess the argument here is that the victim is female and was, therefore, being targeted because of her sexual orientation.

It appears that, in the end, it was treated as harrassment and the builders were warned. End of story!

@breeze

I hated wolf whistles and I didn't think they were a 'bit of fun'. Give me a man with a brain and sensitivity rather than one with caveman sexual instincts any day.

I had a wolf whistle once by a lorry driver when I was walking my yellow labrador and I was 32.
It made my day !! Never had one before and never had one since. LOL.

Actually I think women who need a wolf-whistle as some sort of acknowledgement of their desirability must have incredibly low self confidence and in that respect I feel sorry for them. Most young women today don't need that sort of attention. As for the remarks about high heels and women's behaviour well it's just ridiculous. Please could someone tell me what they think a young woman who is subjected to the behaviour I have mentioned (and it isn't the same men, but different ones in different areas) should do. If it is classified as a crime at least she would have some protection. The idea of responding to the comments isn't on when there is a group of men and you are alone. Wolf whistling could be the beginning of such behaviour, not dealt with it could lead to more offensive things. An early warning would protect young women,

I wish. Used to love a wolf whistle back in the day. PC gone too far again. Most women understand a wolf whistle is just a bit of fun and appreciation that they look good. And the difference between that and harassment or worse. Need to be careful not to emasculate men too much ladies. So they're all too scared to approach us in case we set the law on them. Then we'll all sit back smugly and realise we actually liked 'men being men', appreciated a look up and down and banging on none of them appreciate us anymore.

Had a quick look at your link, dd. I remember that case from last year. As the article says, what is mentioned there falls squarely into the category of harassment and there is no reason why anyone should put up with harassment.

I think the only argument on this thread is what counts as harassment and, in particular, what counts as hate crime.

I wasn't being subtle, k&k. If I had been the very least I would have done is not address you directly. I'm a straightforward kind of person on the whole .

I'm sorry you had to deal with unwanted sexual attention at any time in your life since it was a problem for you. However, I still say that, if it was just wolf-whistling (depends how much as well; an excessive amount might be criminal but if you were just embarassed by it... shrug) I wouldn't necessarily class it as a hate crime.

I think that adults having to deal with/put up with unwanted but mild sexual attention (like being looked at in an appreciative way, and even being whistled at in an appreciative way) by someone of the opposite sex (or the same sex for that matter) is just part of being an adult sexual animal.

Now where did I put my tin hat?

@kateg

She wasn't 'gutted' according to the pressrelease, but 'satisfied' it had been handled internally. It wasn't just wolf whistles...

^A 23-year-old digital marketing coordinator has reported a group of builders to the police for sexual harassment. Every morning on her way to work, Poppy Smart faced gestures, disrespectful comments and wolf-whistles – the builders would even come out of the site to whistle as she passed them, and, on one occasion, one of the men deliberately blocked her path. Smart described the behaviour as “incredibly intimidating” and said it had led her to consider changing her route to work.

After a month, she reported the behaviour both to the firm who employed the men and to the police. The police investigated, but dropped the case when Smart was satisfied it had been handled internally.^

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/womens-blog/2015/apr/29/wolf-whistling-is-not-the-story-our-reaction-to-sexual-harassment

There is no reason anybody should have to put up with that kind of behaviour.

ExaltedWombat were you hoping to get a rise with your comment?

I'm disappointed at some of the attitudes on this thread. Perhaps when it's your granddaughter on the receiving end of the abuse you will think again. When you were younger, a wolf whistle and a cheeky comment could be seen as a compliment. More often than not, these days it is much more than a wolf whistle and if young women now feel unsafe (I have read about this many times), then I am glad something is being done to change that.

There is plenty of crime here in Nottingham. The whole thing is absurd and demeans the idea of hate crimes in general. There are derogatory terms used against women that are hateful and should be illegal. A wolf whistle, however, is nothing of the sort.
This all came about as the result of a 23 year old woman being whistled at. She moved heaven and earth to get the offenders sacked and was no doubt gutted when they got off with a reprimand .

Absolutely thatbags.

thatbags

In your post, I believe you are having a subtle really not that subtle dig at me to suggest I haven't read the thread, well I have and I stick by my original comment and that is whether people on here believe it or not wolf whistling at women who are just going about their daily business is very much in the majority of cases unwanted sexual attention.

I worked in London when I was 25 and there was building work happening in the building around the corner, every single day I had this from a man. It was awful, it made me take an alternative route to work.

It is not acceptable for men to treat women in this way.

Ok so my husband is a builder and employs people in the trade. I think it would be fair to say they have a few very sexist men amongst their number. Think oglng page three, crude graffiti on walls etc. He would now tell any of them not to call out to passing women from his site. I think some men, mostly younger and some not entirely aware of appropriate boundaries, have in the past called out things that are unwelcome and offensive. Think of your own daughter or younger self. A group of men can be very threatening.
When i was young, i would cross the road rather than walk past a building site. In those days the comments were not as crude as nowadays.On the other hand, a man on his own just saying something nice was lovely.

But in none of these circumstances would they be hate crimes. And actually, now I think about it I would hope a lot more girls would tell any catcallers to back off. Although when I see women still tottering in pain on high heeled shoes I wonder whether much has changed. Chinese women used to bind their feet because men found little feet sexy.

This article from the Guardian explains the issue more clearly...

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2016/jul/15/is-wolf-whistling-a-woman-set-to-become-a-hate-crime

This is an extract from it...

A single whistle is unlikely to constitute an offence, and police action has to be proportionate to the incident. But if it was part of a pattern of behaviour – for example, online harassment, stalking and constant wolf-whistling in the street near a woman’s home – the perpetrator could well be arrested and prosecuted.

And another...

In a recent poll, the group End Violence Against Women found that 85% of women aged 18-24 had experienced unwanted sexual attention and 45% had experienced sexual touching. Online there is a similar story. Research by Demos into misogynistic abuse online found that 6,500 women were targeted by 10,000 aggressive and misogynistic tweets using the words “slut” or “whore” in a three-week period in the UK. The Fawcett Society says women and girls face a “tidal wave of abuse and harassment” every day.

Rosina that was particularly silly reaction.

"Pet" is the sort of term used by Geordies to both male and female friends. If it was just that, it should not be thought of as offensive in any way.

Which in other places is "me duck" or "chuck" etc. Down in the south west men and women will call their mates "me lover".
These little local dialect words are part of our culture.

I once wolf whistled a man that I knew well, he ignored me! I felt a twit, next time I saw him I told him what I had done turned out he had seen me and knew it was me who had whistled and decided to ignore me to make me feel embarrassed, he thought it was funny, never did get my own back.