Social mobility and grammar schools

www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2016/07/31/trade-union-and-employment-rights-in-the-courageous-state/

This is interesting about apprenticeships. It was written in 2011.

Gettingonabit, there is the problem of wages for one man bands , plus extra health and safety training and as I said in my previous post, the apprentice more often than not starts his own one man band when qualified . Less so with bricklayers etc because they need so much equipment plus transport to take equipment from one job to another, easier to take a hold-all than a cement mixer .

The building trade is hard , working on a barn roof in winter months is not enjoyable , neither is digging frozen ground ,

My brother was just about to start university when he changed his mind and chose a bricklaying apprenticeship, he did this with the intention of having his own firm, he qualified , then he started on his own , our father went with him as a labourer - no pay- he then took one one apprentice and the firm grew. He is now in his fifties , is waiting for a second knee replacement op and his bones are rather a mess, yes he is quite wealthy but at the cost of his health . So easy for anyone to say - why not serve an apprenticeship in the building trade , I am thankful my grandson went to university and will not have the same health problems as his father who is a carpenter - my brothers foreman . Yes we need builders but it takes it's toll on the body

Yes, but there isn't a system that benefits all children, is there ?

Our eldest grand daughter in Hull is just finishing a 4 year apprenticeship as an industrial electrician. Her dad does the same work.
Probably boasting, but we're very proud of her.

ab I'm glad to hear your firm is employing apprentices in the construction trade.

The process of training apprentices in construction is actually excellent-there's just not enough of it going on!!

I used to work in the construction industry and the apprenticeships were strictly regulated by both employer organisations and-crucially-the unions.

I think the problem with plumbers/electricians stems from the fact that many of the people practising these trades are "one man bands" who have little time/interest/motivation to train others.

granjura I understand that, on the Continent, there have always been worker representatives on Boards. This is not so in the UK. I'm hoping this will change under May and that she'll stick to her promise.

4 years if combined with linking up to the Maturité/ät (very wide version of the A'Levels Uni entrance- including all subjects (around 9) )

I am so glad to hear this Annie. truly. My comment was about 'some' not all ... and again, I am glad it doesn't apply to the ones your firm and many others provide.

Out of interest, how long is an apprenticeship in the UK?
Is it 3 years?

My comment applied mainly to problems, following comments from friends and relatives and previous experience in the UK.

You are wrong granjura , our firm has apprentice bricklayers, plasters, carpenters etc , they work part of the week on site and part at the college , your comment some are not worth the paper they are written on is offensive

There is a problem with plumbers , no firms with fifty or more plumbers I know of, there are small firms and find paying an apprentice costly , plus the fact most who qualify as plumbers choose to become self employed , so the plumber has to start training yet again for the same outcome

So agree about lack of training for the trades- some of the apprenticeships are just not worth the paper they are written on. Here in Switzerland, and in Germany too- apprenticeships are really well organised and supervised, over a period of 3 to 4 years- and are really well respected. Young adults can go on to become 'Masters' in their Trade and trainers if they wish- or can link up to Maturité/ät again, and then go on to Uni the longer route if they wish. Trades are also well protected- and if you want work done to your house/business/council, etc - it has to be supplied by someone who has the necessary Trade qualifications or it won't pass muster.

Again, it is a CHOICE.

gettingonabit.

I totally agree.

We don't invest in training, iam but this is nothing new. We've been bleating on about the lack of bricklayers for as long as I can remember. And we still are.

The reason? Casualisation of the labour force staring with Thatcher and allowed to continue, meaning no one takes responsibility for training of youngsters.

The response? Employ cheap, ready trained immigrant labour, of course!

We need so badly to invest in trades, but persist in painting academic education as some sort of educational holy grail.

We need to move on from that way of thinking and sharpish.

I'd rather see dd as a fully-employed plumber or brickie than an out-of-work lawyer or academic like me.

I have looked at the Finnish school model Daphnedill and agree that it is quite enviable.
We have 8.5 million children in school though,and it would be a major undertaking to adopt it ,though I notice the states are keen on it too.
They have a sprinkling of faith and Steiner schools which are run independently but financed by the government.
Reading about it,I do wish it was here.

Exactly Annie. BBevan - no I wouldn't. What I would want is an excellent system for all children, not just the few. In 'our' day- the only alternative (apart from private of course) was going to a Sec Mod- which were great for some kids- and a disaster for others. Now if we only were prepared to properly fund our excellent Comprehensive schools- so kids could be setted properly in decent size classes- then wouldn't it be wonderful? It is a CHOICE ... and as said, as long as the affluent and influent can opt out of poorer schools, no pressure nor finance will be provided... I'm alright Jack and so are my kids, so there....

If you think a good education for all is too expensive - try ignorance and see where that leads. Nobody will be winners in that race.

Iam64,

I wonder if your point re bragging about a law firm referred to a previous post of my own.If so I would like to clarify.
It was not bragging.
I am very much in favour of grammar schools,but my SISTER went to a comprehensive and now runs her own law firm(small and just managing to pay staff wages currently).She had no advantages and came from a council estate.
My comment was to support the fact that some pupils can do very well in the comprehensive system,WITHOUT going to a grammar.

If it was not my comment,I apologise.

No person would want their children to benefit from any system which hurts other children surely?

Iam64 yes but if you were, are , one of those advantaged by the grammar school system, as I was, then you would want that for your own children or grandchildren.
Wouldn't you ?

Wales is not under English rule for education ,

I suspect the answer is because we don't invest enough in training durhamjen, same with nurses, midwives etc. It's 'cheaper' to import them from poorer countries who have invested in their training.
It's also true that because of the decrease in our manufacturing base, fewer young people were able to access good quality apprenticeships. Remember schemes like the YTS which provided very poor 'training' for young people, rather than the high quality apprenticeships.
Things are improving. One of my grandchildren managed, after A levels and two years of searching, to find an specific engineering apprenticeship. He was lucky, a friend's father introduced him to the small firm. I know several entrepreneurial young folks who have apprentices working with them, hairdressing, beauty therapy, gardening for example. It's a great way for young people to learn a skilled trade and also allow them to grow up with good role models around them.
Our young people will be working into their 70's I expect. Let's allow them longer in the education system than leaving school at 15 because they weren't "bright" enough for the grammar schools.

Iagree with both daphne and Iam.
We do not need to go back to a system that failed the majority of children.
In the fifties and sixties, there was a need for more people working in factories or even down the mines. We did not need the majority to be educated to a high standard.
Where is our manufacturing base now? More people work in te service industry than in manufacturing.
I heard someone say on the radio this morning about the Hinkley Point reactor that we have missed the opportunity of buying a reactor that works, from South Korea!
Why do we not have our own engineers to build reactors if that's what we want?
What happened to our education system that we cannot even think of doing this ourselves?
Haven't we just voted to be more self sufficient, yet we have to rely on China or South Korea for our power?

There has been some IQ boasting going on here, plus references to children who have their own law firm etc. All very unnecessary when he subject being discussed is the possibility of a return to an outdated education system that disadvantaged many children from the age of 11.

We should focus on improving our excellent comprehensive system. Smaller classes in both primary and high schools. Widen opportunities to link to apprenticeships for older children but don't deny them the broad education needed.

Not necessarily, TriciaF, but it would take a very brave government to abolish all grammar and faith schools. I doubt very much if it will happen in my lifetime. The British are too fond of hanging in to privilege and nostalgia.

The issue in the OP is that there are pressure groups who want to expand grammar school provision, when the trend should be the reverse, if the UK wants a truly world class education system.

Finland has a population of only 5.5 million, so that would be a much simpler task than in England and Wales.

@Nannylovesshopping

I'm sorry if you feel that this is a bragging thread. I really haven't meant to brag, but I felt I needed to defend myself when people claimed that people who support comprehensive schools are 'jealous'.

My children have received a great education within the comprehensive system and they have friends who have gone on to all sorts of futures.

When I first started teaching, people thought I would look for jobs in grammar and independent schools, because that was my background. I was adamant that I wanted to work in a comprehensive school. I admit that it was a steep learning curve. I had never come across people who didn't think education wasn't important or people who didn't have the same values that I had.

I don't think that the UK has its priorities regarding education right. There are too many people, like Gove, who think that all pupils should have a grammar school-type education. If I had a magic wand (which is a dream, because I will never have) I would abolish all selective and faith schools and look towards the Finnish model of providing great schools for all.

Bragging, ie., my iq is better than yours

@Margaret5X

I was the same. I lived in the suburb of a working class area. There were 50 in my primary school class with no teaching assistant. It sounds amazing that there were so many of us, but I have a number of class photos and have counted them. We were the top class (out of two) and I was on the top table. I think there were about eight of us. It was a very progressive 1960s school and we bounced ideas off each other with little teacher intervention. All of us passed the 11+ to direct grant schools. It wasn't until much later that I realised that not all humans were like us.