Looks like it could soon be 'RIP the NHS'?

@dj

But we won't be part of the EU and the UK will go its own way.

@dj

I suspect you're right. Apparently the UK is already eying up Apple. Post-BREXIT, the UK will be able to offer 'sweetheart' deals to all these big companies and, if you read some of the stuff people like Liam Fox have written in the past, that's exactly what they want to do. A number of people have predicted that the UK will become a tax haven in its own right, which will provide a handful of jobs for the mega-wealthy, but nothing for the country.

Country by country reporting goes some way towards that, I would think. Taxes paid where the money is made.

www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2016/08/31/the-apple-tax-case-will-put-globalisation-on-trial/

I do hope the EU doesn't back down on this, particularly as it's to do with competition law.

It's not just the 'big players' who escape paying income tax and NI.

I know somebody (my ex) who doesn't pay income tax or NI, but uses the NHS and other public services quite legally. He has a property portfolio worth millions, but claims he makes no profit, because he has to pay mortgages. Any profit is actually channeled through other family members and paid to him. Some of it is kept offshore. He lives abroad for most of the year, so never brings the money back to the UK.

This arrangement was originally set up to avoid paying me any maintenance for our children and to avoid paying back a student loan. It also means that he's not liable for tax or NI. His wealth isn't taxed until he sells the property, but I have no doubt he will time that so that he's living abroad.

I would like to see a wealth tax on assets physically in the UK, so **s like him can't wriggle out of tax.

I presume it's because Apple has threatened to move their European headquarters elsewhere if they are not allowed to carry on as they have been.
Some multinationals think they are above the law. They are definitely outside it.

www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2016/08/31/ireland-could-wipe-out-child-poverty-for-a-decade-with-apples-tax-bill-and-doesnt-want-to/

Well if it was on income tax you could allow for that factor of course. Truth of the matter is that Hunt et al on a mission to promote the interests of private insurers and providers and push us towards a haves and have not 2 tier system.

Loving the notion that Ireland desperate to turn down 13 billion euros
This represents a significant chunk of annual tax revenue.

Presumably with allowances for those who cannot afford a fancy coffee or a pint each week?

I would suggest the lottery money goes to it, but that would tax the poor, not the rich.

There is a health service lottery. Anyone know where that money goes?

Apart from which I disagree with people having to pay more for the NHS when others get away with not paying their taxes in full.

Can't wait to see what happens over Apple taxes.

We just need to be chipping in, on average, the cost of a pint, or a fancy coffee, per week, to fund the NHS. I seen no reason why higher rate tax payers should not pay more than their fair share. One less restaurant meal per month maybe?

Yes, it could be changed so there is no limit to what people pay. It could also be changed so that wealthier pensioners pay something.

The point is about it is that's it's not an insurance scheme. If you pay into a private pension scheme, the amount you get back is related to how much you've paid in. National Insurance doesn't act like that, nor do unemployment benefits have any relation to the number of years people have paid nor how much they've paid. They don't have much relation to need either.

A hypothecated health tax would mean that the NHS could remain a service free at the point of use, regardless of ability to pay, but would be paid for by those with the greatest ability to pay. The alternative is to have private insurance schemes muscling in and it wouldn't be long before we end up in a situation like the US.

This is a letter in the Guardian from Dick Taverne, the former Labour/Independent MP and now in the Lords:

www.theguardian.com/society/2016/jul/28/contributions-change-could-save-the-nhs

However, it could be changed so that there was no limit to the amount that the wealthy pay.

The point is that it is National INSURANCE.
I cannot recall ever being able to get out as much as I paid in in any insurance schemme I've paid into.
The idea of insurance is that you pay in just in case something bad happens. That should be what the NHS cover is all about, except that people who cannot afford to pay in should also be covered.

Lewlew, schools teach almost nothing about how the government works. You probably know a lot more than the average British person born in the UK.

I don't know why the pots have become mixed, but I'm sure tha accountants do.

My personal belief is that National Insurance needs reforming, because it's not doing the job nowadays that it was set up to do. It has been heavily criticised for being a regressive tax, because the wealthiest don't pay proportionately more and because the link between what people pay in and what they get out is almost non-existent.

Thanks durhamjen and daphnedill... very strange for an official govt site to put in such wrong info, and to what purpose? If the funding has shifted and the pots mixed over time, then what is the point. I wonder what they teach in schools... if at all...about how government works.

www.theguardian.com/society/2016/aug/27/uk-needs-new-tax-to-save-nhs-social-care-from-collapse

This is it, whitewave.

I do not know how a doctor can be a Tory MP and agree with what their own party is doing to the NHS.
He must know there is enough money collected in taxes and NI. He has obviously agreed for it to be spent in different ways. He cannot solve the problem when he is part of it.
He has agreed to reduce the number of tax collectors so that taxes are not collected to the full. He has agreed with the government on spending money on Trident instead of the NHS.

nhap.org/dr-paul-hobday-leader-of-the-national-health-action-party-says-that-we-need-action-now-to-save-the-nhs-what-will-be-left-to-renationalise-in-a-couple-of-years-time-wont-be/

Most new immigrants are young and healthy, and make few demands on NHS. Same goes for all the Australian and New Zealanders who come to work in London for a few years.
There is a higher demand for maternity related services amongst more settled groups of immigrants as some groups tend to have more children than the average. This has a long term benefit - if it was not for this group we would have an even worse ever-aging population profile and even fewer younger people to work and pay taxes over the coming decades.

Headline in Observer -Tory wants a dedicated? Tax for the NHS. I haven't read the article yet but if he has the survival of a NHS at the centre of his ideas, then I will support him. I don't care where the support comes from as long as we keep our health service free and comprehensive at the point of need.

fullfact.org/europe/eu-immigration-and-pressure-nhs/

fullfact.org/immigration/immigration-and-nhs-staff/

fullfact.org/immigration/some-immigration-facts-factchecked/

You should be careful what you say about immigrants and the NHS.
If all the immigrants went home, we'd be stuck.

The rest I agree with. My mother was a nurse from 1939 to 1982.

I worked in the NHS from 1967 to 2004 nursing and my wife worked from 1965 to 2011 as a midwife. Over those years the Conserative governments have always done their utmost to run the service Into the ground. Frank Dobson was the health secretary from 1997 to 1999 and by far the best health secretary that the NHS had. All others have been less than useless. Over the years as more and more overseas visitors came to the UK the more the service started to creak under the strain of sheer numbers of patients and constant hidden budget cuts. The current health secretary is fragmenting the service to make it easy to sell off each section to the private sector.

Having spent the last 15 weeks in our local district hospital with a very sick husband. In my humble opinion the NHS is already on its knees. The nursing staff and carers are worked way, way too hard and for a very measly salary compared to some other professions

I can't bear to read all this. The Government's action on the NHS is born out of greed and profiteering, and is based on the philosophy that the poor, the elderly, the sick and the disabled are not worth keeping alive as they cost the rich too much so we can all go to hell in a handcart as far as they're concerned. All you need to do is to look at which MPs have a financial interest in private health care and health insurance and you have your answer. I despise them for what they are doing.

I agree JessM about the scapegoating of NHS managers, and the Kings Fund does indeed show that for an organisation the size of the NHS there are too few managers. I have retired from the NHS, not as a manager, and I know how demoralised and stressed most of the staff of all grades now feel.

No, I received mine within seconds.

petition.parliament.uk/petitions/124340

I have tried signing the petition but the validation email is not coming through to finish it off - anyone else had this?

I've joined all the online groups I can. I've also just posted info about STPs to a local group which is campaigning for better local facilities.

If people want to find out what's already planned in their area, click here...

speakout.38degrees.org.uk/campaigns/nhs-secret-plans

Thanks for the petition link. Signed.

Thanks, too, to Durhamjen and others for all the background info and links. Invaluable to read GNers who can share their knowledge and expertise in this area.

Meantime, on the topic of health insurance, the OH and I pay around £17 a month (for the two of us) with Benenden. I've just had gall bladder surgery through them as the nhs waiting times are lengthy round our way.

Whilst I know that some GNers will have issues of principle with any paid for treatment, I thought it might be worth a look for the non urgent stuff that comes along.