Gender Pay Gap

Another interesting article about (and by) women in business Do women want different business advice from men? It includes a video by Justine Roberts, founder of Mumsnet.

JessM, exactly what our DD1 is doing in her top performing City Firm. First step is to get other Partners/Senior managers to admit there is an issue to be addressed. Once that is accepted- the rest becomes much easier.

Yes you are right bags that it exists and it depends how competitive their business environment.
There was a representative of a top city firm talking about the issue on R4 and they had looked at the problem and changed policies and procedures to retain and reward female talent and potential instead of letting it drift away.
gracesgran - under the present benefits regime, large numbers of unemployed people have been pressured into becoming "self employed". This counts as a win for the organisations that are contracted to help people find work. However starting up as any kind of self employed not easy and you have no paid holidays or anything like that. There has also been a trend of organisations of all kinds taking on people on a "self employed" basis to avoid giving them full rights and fair pay. Happened to my niece, working for a university owned museum (not an unscrupulous private business!). Recruitment freeze in place. So what should have been a humble part time job - a job that needed doing on a permanent basis - was given to her as a part time "consultant" and she had to sort out all her own tax etc etc. and never able to feel fully part of the team.
I was annoyed during the election campaign that these people were getting counted twice - as part of the "numbers who had found work" as well as being touted by Cameraon as part of the number of "new businesses we have created" .

Thanks for the link, elegran.

I agree that it's not as simple as my post seemed to suggest to you, jess and gracesgran, and I agree, jess, about narrow-mindedness in managers, but I also think that necessity matters. If a business is running smoothly and profitably in spite of managerial narrow-mindedness and apparent loss of talent, then where is the motivation to broaden one's mindset or to retain a particular person's 'talent'?

I'm not saying this is a right or ideal scenario, just that I think it exists, and it won't change until it needs to because that's what human beings are like.

Thanks daphnedill.

Pensions, or lack of, is a problem.

dd I heard someone on the radio say the other day (sorry can't reference it) that, on average, self-employed people's earnings are half that of employed people. Allowing for the fact that a small percentage of self-employed earn greatly more than someone employed in the same job I found that very worrying.

As I understand it the small business set up for cleaning, ironing, etc., would be legally self-employed but the delivery driver situation is more debatable.

It's been a national thing for ages, obie. Until a few years ago, the DWP used to actively encourage the unemployed to become self-employed by offering financial incentives. It wasn't a lot, but it was more than JSA and people didn't feel so stigmatised and hassled. Unfortunately, rules about minimum wage, holiday pay, etc don't apply to the self-employed and people are now finding themselves much worse off.

Privatisation of Royal Mail has led to an explosion of delivery drivers, who are legally self-employed and are paid a pittance with no employment safeguards. Cuts to public services have meant that former managers are now working as self-employed consultants. There's much more. The ONS has shown that there's been a huge rise in the number of self-employed and the median income is somewhere around £10,000.

My area has a very high number of self-employed - mainly women, who set up small businesses, because there's very little paid work available. Most of the businesses fail.

Thanks for the article, Elegran. It really is about much more than equal pay for equal work.

Is the telling people to become self-employed becoming widespread? I know a few people that has happened to, but didnt realise ti could be a national thing happening.

Interesting article Elegran. Picking up on Obieone's comment on point 1, in some countries people's tax returns are available for anyone to see so there isn't this idea of keeping salaries secret.

Reading the article I can see two things that might help. Firstly all pay for all jobs should be open and available and secondly we need another equal pay act to say that part-time pay must be proportionate to full time for a job of equal worth. I do appreciate that employers will play with the "job of equal worth" bit but a few tribunals being won will have them being more careful to some extent at least.

I agree Obieone that the gap between the highest paid and the lowest is getting wider but I am also as concerned about the move towards less security for employees (or those who have been told to become self-employed).

Point 1. of Elegran's link.
Where someone I know works, it is a fireable offence if you ask what a colleague is earning.

I think that enables an employer to hide what they are paying colleagues doing much the same work.

It seems to me that the top now of many companies, institutions etc, including the long running ones, have structures in place to keep the 1% away or ahead of the 99%. And the situationis only getting worse.

Not sure what that has to do with gender pay, but most organisations at the top are run by men from what I can see.

Interesting article appeared 7 hours ago.
Four ways the gender pay gap isn't all it seems

Good capitalist speak there thatbags. If the market demands it then it is right. We do have to ask who wins from the market being run in this way and who looses. It also begs the question as to whether this is the only way to run an economy - there are pluses and minuses in all types but there certainly isn't only one that works although there may only be one that works for a specific group of people.

I recently came across the term "gig-economy" for the first time. This is where your "flexibility" is going. Teachers are now part of this, certainly in colleges, as are nurses. Is this how we want to construct our society? Having a "gig" (job for a short period of time) when you are in a band in your early 20s may work but relying on this structure of work to support yourself and your family ...

In the second half of my life I have started to believe in a class war - not the old class structure but new and equally opposing ones. I have watched only one class - the elite - do everything including stealing pensions from those they employ and despair of the structure that has formed. Out of this sort of suppression many nasty things have arisen in the past and there is no law that says it may not in the future.

It's not as simple as that Bags. Managers can be narrow in their thinking. I've come across it many times. They have in their heads that a particular full-time role needs to continue in the same way. They may also believe that being in the office for long hours somehow equates to good performance. (In fact some people waste a lot of time in work, chatting or playing computer games or using social media and may be less productive than someone who is fully focussed during their paid hours.) Getting them to take the time and make the mental effort to have a fresh look at how the work could be done is something I have done on many occasions. This can enable a person who wishes to work part time to retain their management responsibilities while someone else does some of the other tasks in the job description. It usually requires HR input to question and its more work than just saying "its a full time role". Managers don't always see the loss of female talent they just accept it.

I cant find the scroll down Penstemmon.

thatbags, it is paperwork too. Two lots for two employees, instead of one lot.

I suspect that when employers need to be flexible about the working hours of their employees, they will be. Or when it makes no difference, or when it benefits them.

Necessity mother of invention and all that.

And so I suspect that those who are not flexible already haven't felt the need, even if employees have. I guess that means that it's still easier, and possibly cheaper, to employ someone else to do all the hours than to employ one person for some of them and someone else for the others.

All of this is speculation on my part but none of it seems as if it could be unreasonable from an employer point of view.

Also, the skill level of a person will dictate how dispensable they are. Someone with rare skills is not as dispensable as someone with common skills.

Not directly linked to OP but this link has a scroll down column at the side about amazing women who do all sorts of jobs/work/ careers but often we have not heard of. Just thought it might be interesting if you had not already seen it.

www.amightygirl.com/

I must admit that they do seem to be very quick to delete posts these days, sometimes for the flimsiest of reasons.

I did read the post in question, but it didn't strike me as being 'beyond the pale'!

llrina, if you didnt see the post, how can you know how beyond the pale it was?

GNHQ only delete a post if it's been reported by other GN members for some reason. They don't trawl threads looking for posts to delete!

And not delete a thread that was inappropriate about nazis?
Glad gransnet deleted it so quickly.
Perhaps you should have a talk to gransnet about what you dont like about them? Though I cant see it going well.

But there isn't an ignore button. Or a hide button I dont. O rany other kind of button like that.

And moderationon gransnet is already mild.

You could start a thread on site stuff, but I think everything has been said before.

I didn't see the Nazi comment as I have just come online now. One thing I do wish though is that GNHQ would not be so fast to delete things.

Ladies,and Gentlemen of course, this is GRANSnet, so by definition we are all grown ups on here. This could perhaps lead into a thread about a nanny state. For me though I would like to make my own decisions. It would be better if there was an "ignore" button so that one could make one's own mind up.

If someone offends or annoys you simply press the ignore button and you will never see another post from them again

Lots of women would like to either work more flexibly or work part time. Employers need to be more flexible if they are to retain their expertise and talent. When looking at recruitment needs they need to be open minded about whether or not you really need a full timer in the role.
I know of a number of very competent women who have managed to rise in their careers despite only working part time - but their employers have been willing to negotiate a package with them that works. If more women in senior HR roles push these kind of ideas and practices things will improve for other women (and for men who don't want to work full time).