Is he being too strict?

My two sons never wore a uniform in their inner London primary and comprehensive schools and there didn't seem to be a "brands" problem with them. In fact the school with the worst behaved kids in the area was a uniformed school and it was often chosen by parents of out of control kids who thought it would knock their boys into shape. In spite of this I think that parents should always support the rules of the school their children go to. PS I can't stand seeing primary children in uncomfortable mini-bankers outfits.

Uniforms and conformity without question.........why not go the whole hog and bring back the Hitler youth?

Education is about more than that and I would not want such doctrines inflicted upon my children. If the schools have been failing in the past then whoever was in charge then ut to have had their pay docked.

The headmasters concerned (there are two outbreaks of this nonsense now) are actually teaching insubordination, they are directly telling their employers how to live their lives.

One headmaster at least looks like a bag of shite tied up with string and I am waiting to see what dirt press drags up on him.

I feel the same about parents castigated for turning up at the school gates in pyjamas, it is none of the teachers business what they choose to wear, and if teachers did a little more teaching and a lot less criticising, our kids might fare better.

All this quasi military uniform nonsense is biazare. The uniform of many creative professionals, artists, IT workers, farmers, musicians, etc etc has long moved on from the diktat of the suit brigade.

Boris and Geldof each have their own sartorial style.......and confidence and charm........and plenty of money, there is not just the one example to aspire to.

The question is actually of discipline of which school uniform is but a part. The head needs to be in charge in his or her own school and the parents need to understand this and uphold the school's discipline.

The problem is daphnedill is we need 3 places in years 2,4 and 6 ! Logistically One place would be worse than none. Having a nightmare with the LA about them supplying and paying for taxis which I know they are supposed to do in such circumstances .

Plenty cheating going on I know . Have spoke off the record to the school secretary at one of the schools and she have me lots of examples .

[ hmm] How did we get from a new HT putting his case for confirmation to basic school uniform rules to Kim Jong-un?

Nowhere have I said that a) there should not be clear expectations for behaviour in schools or b) that it is easy to achieve. My point is that there are many excellent secondary schools that do not rely on over zealous policing of uniform detail but on training kids to make responsible choices for themselves. Over control by rules is as bad long term than none! Look at N Korea as an extreme example!

I have to agree with you DD. While my experience of secondaries is a bit similar to Pen's but as a LEA Advisor I see it from a completely different point of view.

I wear a 'uniform' to work, it makes me feel in working mode. On the rare occasions that I just pop in on my day off for whatever reason and am wearing mufti I don't feel quite as professional as I normally do.
I do think that if pupils are looking smart so should the teachers.

But you didn't work in secondary? Sorry, but I remember your posts about autistic children, who benefit most from safe boundaries. Try working in a secondary with 2000 pupils and tell me they thrive when rules are lax. These are the very schools, where pupils get bullied and bow to peer pressure.

Anyway, we know now what May wants to do with grammar and faith schools. These schools are popular with parents, because they tend to have strict behaviour codes, including uniform. I feel so sorry for the children who are going to end up in the sink schools.

I worked in the School Improvement department for two Local Authorities so know of several different secondary schools from that perspective though I was head of primary schools not secondary. I obviously had secondary colleagues who I knew well. My DH is an OFSTED inspector of secondary education so I do hear a lot about current secondary schools across the country.

That's very interesting Daphnedill. I do have wider family (in grammar school areas) who have been through the hoops of getting their children into schools and also London friends who've had to negotiate the system, sometimes beginning years in advance of school entry? Pretty much all of them have ended up with the school they wanted but you do wonder what happens to the youngsters who have no one to fight their corner and get the right school for their needs.

I'm fortunate that the only times I've had to make such choices has been when we've lived abroad and had to go private. Otherwise, we have had access to good schools without having to go through all that stress and strain.

Did you have much experience in secondary schools, Penstemmon? What you're claiming sounds great in theory, but it doesn't work in practice.

I agree with you, GillT54. It's about giving out a clear message that once a child steps into the school, she/he is entering a world which is serious about education and probably has different ground rules from the world outside. Children from dysfunctional backgrounds need that more than those coming from well-ordered backgrounds. Although I didn't understand it when I started teaching, I came to believe that children generally thrive better and feel safer when there are boundaries - uniform being one of them.

GillT57 instilling control by uniform is a superficial way of managing recalcitrant kids/families. It is also a calculated way of getting rid of difficult families/kids . The kids need to go somewhere or else they are encouraged to 'home educate'. Home education can be brilliant if entered into thoughtfully and purposefully. I can also be disaster when seen as a way out of being 'excluded'!
Really good schools do not need these ridiculously tight uniform rules. It is the stupidity of a rule & not rules themselves that I find so infuriating.

@gillybob

That's why I asked if it was a mid year admission. The same thing happened to my son when we moved when he was in Year 3. We could see the local primary school from the house, but there were no places, so he had to go to a school five miles away, for which the authority paid for a taxi. Fortunately, a place was 'found' after a term.

That situation was caused by parental choice, because many places were taken by children from miles away. This was an extremely popular school, which I hadn't realised. Schools aren't able to keep places in reserve for children who move into the area.

I went to appeal and the local government ombudsman, because the appeal didn't follow procedure and it was an extremely stressful time for all of us.

All schools, as far as I am aware, issue a pupil/school/parent agreement which all parties sign. This spells out expectations in terms of behaviour, uniform, homework etc. Parents need to teach children that whether they like them or not, there are certain rules and expectations in the big wide world and you cant just run home to Mum shouting it's not fair. The head is trying hard and sounded like a fair man when interviewed on radio 4. I would suggest that the press withdraw and stop giving the gobby children and their equally gobby parents the airtime they do not deserve, and let the vast majority of responsible parents and children get on with the business of education

@SueDonim
Parents have been 'sold' the idea that they have a choice, but in reality most don't have one. Come back in three years and ten years and tell us whether your son was able to send his child to the schools he thinks are best. The whole system is pot luck, apart from those who think ahead and understand the admissions criteria, buy/rent property next door to the school or start going to church!

Parts of some London suburbs are a nightmare, with a hotchpotch of semi-selective schools, proper comprehensives and secondary moderns called comprehensives, but aren't, because local schools cream off the most able. People aren't usually offered schools over an authority border as their first choice, even though it might be the nearest school.

What happens here is that people don't like their nearest school and/or think another one will be better. They then opt for another school, which has already filled up all its places with children who come higher up the admissions list. As the preferences are all full up, children are then sent anywhere with places. The only schools with places are, by definition, the least popular ones. To add insult to injury, parents are then charged just over £900 a year for school transport, because they have opted not to send their offspring to the nearest school with places.

Sorry to go on, but the reality is that there is very little choice. Grammar schools won't increase that choice for the majority either. Moreover, parents in Essex have to pay school transport costs if their children pass the 11+, which deters those who can't afford the fare. Personally, I feel the whole 'choice' illusion should be abandoned and the government should invest in good, local schools.

As for school uniforms, I'm ambivalent. I've seen schools improve quite dramatically when uniform is tightened up, although there's no clear logical reason for it. Schools won't relax uniform codes, because they are the most visible sign outside the school buildings that there is some sense of order within the schools themselves. Schools try to give the impression that they're like private schools, most of which have strict uniform codes.

Sorry to hear that gillybob such an added strain for everyone concerned. The inflexibilty in admission rules (rightly there to prevent 'cheating') are frustrating when there is a genuine need for a local place. Hope it resolves soon

No daphnedill they moved house in April to a new area . There is one school virtually on their doorstep and another 2 around a mile away in opposite directions . Have applied to all 3 and been refused . Currently they have a very long journey to and from their old school everyday . Fine if I can take them in the car ( I live around 5 miles away from them) but it's an hour and a half either way using public transport/walking . have appealed to the LEA and currently awaiting an appeal date.

jalima kids in uncomfortable clothing often fidget and cannot concentrate. Wearing a joggers or tailored trousers does not affect ones ability to think!! Einstein had a great mind but was incredibly untidy.
In my experience people who like to 'look smart' use that as a cover for insecurity or inability!

Hear, hear!

I am not a fan of using uniform to try to show who is in control. In the military /fire brigade/police etc. strict adherence to dress rules is important to build the discipline of unthinking obedience as the work they do is often 'life & death'situations. Schools do not need this level of control.

I know many parents find uniform useful and so though I personally do not like them or see them as important for school I would subscribe to a basic dress code that might include a colour scheme and basic 'Health & Safety' rules regarding shoes and hair style.
If a school cannot create a purposeful, safe & well ordered atmosphere so that kids can learn new stuff without insisting on artificially stringent dress rules something is very wrong with the school's leadership.

I don't think anyone dared take off their hat but some hats were perched very precariously on the backs of ponytails
The worst crime was eating in the street in school uniform - or speaking to a boy through the school railings!

When I was at school the most heinous crime you could commit was to be seen in the street without your hat. One girl got a detention for decorating hers with cherry blossom. They occasionally measured our skirts to make sure they weren't too short and we were only allowed to wear nylon stockings or white ankle socks. For some reason knee high white socks were strictly forbidden - I never have worked that one out. We had to wear flat black or brown shoes but no one cared what they were made of and I don't think this headmaster would have approved of the winkle pickers I wore for years.