Gransnet forums

News & politics

Brexit and power to the people

(437 Posts)
whitewave Fri 14-Oct-16 08:18:55

Really interesting court case and day 1 of "The Royal Prerogative"

It basically boils down to whether a minister -in this case Amino 1 - can remove rights established by an act of parliament.

It raises questions of "fundamental constitutional importance about the limits of the power of the executive"

Pannick, QC for the challenger, said " this court is not concerned with the political wisdom of withdrawal" "The government was wrong to suggest the legal challenge was merely camouflage to prevent Brexit"

Pannick's client the court was advised had again received threats, abuse and insults.

A further QC - representing the people
Argued" the constitution of our parliamentary democracy, unwritten as it is , is predicated on the sovereignty of parliament and the courts working as arbiter. Notification of withdrawal leads to the removal of the rights of UK citizens.
Chambers QC argued that the referendum did not replace the UK system of parliamentary democracy"
If the government triggered A50 it would be setting itself up as "de facto legislature"
This is a case about what is legally required, not what is legally expedient.

Good ain't it?

nigglynellie Mon 17-Oct-16 19:00:36

Gibraltar can't be given to Spain under any circumstances unless the people of Gibraltar specifically agree, and Judging from Gibraltarian friends, hell will freeze over sooner than that happening! Read the Treaty of Utrecht 1713 to clarify. Why do you hate Gibraltar? Has it or its population done you down in some way? If not surely a rather sweeping statement!

durhamjen Mon 17-Oct-16 18:59:29

Better than the Tower of London.

whitewave Mon 17-Oct-16 17:21:19

I hate Gibraltar!! Anyway it will be given to Spain as part of the negotiations!

Tegan Mon 17-Oct-16 17:01:39

I think us remoaners will all be sent to Gibraltar. If we don't all try to sit/lie down/breathe in/out[?] at the same time we might fit in.

whitewave Mon 17-Oct-16 16:04:32

Free at the point of delivery? Limits you a bit

trisher Mon 17-Oct-16 16:04:01

Oh I hadn't thought of that I was thinking about the weather. I know someone from Croatia who insists they have a better health service than we do- no waiting times.

durhamjen Mon 17-Oct-16 15:59:57

I need somewhere with a good health service. Any ideas?

trisher Mon 17-Oct-16 15:56:16

I quite like the idea of the Cayman Islands. New Zealand might be nice if Australia isn't possible. "beyond the seas" gives a lot of scope doesn't it?

Jalima Mon 17-Oct-16 15:50:30

They can transport me to Australia, saves me saving up for months and months.
What do I have to do?

Oh, I forgot, the Australians won't let you in if you have a criminal conviction

whitewave Mon 17-Oct-16 15:15:16

Oh transportation! That would do me.

Dear oh dear and we vote for these idiots

durhamjen Mon 17-Oct-16 14:20:51

No tax as well, Maisie.

MaizieD Mon 17-Oct-16 14:07:39

I think that the punishment set out in the 1948 Act, which he suggesting the amendment to, is transportation.

Unfortunately, the Australians have a points sytem, don't they?

I wouldn't mind being transported to the Cayman Islands, though. They're still under Brit control so I think we'd get in quite easily.

whitewave Mon 17-Oct-16 13:59:15

How utterly ridiculous! Honestly where do they find these people. Would the Tower be roomy enough for half the population?! Is hung drawn and quartered still on the books?!grin

durhamjen Mon 17-Oct-16 13:50:08

Which makes it very expensive to police.

Talking about the courts,

www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/oct/17/call-to-keep-uk-in-eu-should-be-treason-urges-tory-councillors-petition

We may need to be very careful what we say in future.

I have twice written Boris and got that silly survey coming up about me being a BT user. Are they watching now?

whitewave Mon 17-Oct-16 09:35:04

Yes it is all on precedent and set by the courts. I'm just wondering if the court will be willing to overturn the royal prerogative relating to foreign policy. I can't think of a reason why it should be returned to the will of the people.

MaizieD Mon 17-Oct-16 07:31:53

We do have a constitution; it's just not a written one.

durhamjen Sun 16-Oct-16 22:57:05

waitingfortax.com/2016/10/16/brexit-the-important-role-of-the-court-of-justice/

durhamjen Sun 16-Oct-16 21:19:15

I thought we didn't have a constitution.

whitewave Sat 15-Oct-16 16:13:36

Another bit of useless information.

The royal prerogative covers stuff like being able to award bling, and accepting a pms resignation and asking someone if they could form a government and other unimportant fal lals but crucially it does cover foreign policy, which presumably what May is banking on in their argument in court next week.

But as our constitution is based on court law and precedent I suppose there is the possibility that the judge could decide that progress would be made if the foreign policy bit should be taken into the jurisdiction of parliament along with everything else, and move the UK constitution closer to the 21st century.

Welshwife Fri 14-Oct-16 19:45:54

bag plebiscites can be set up in a great variety of ways and this is why they can be non binding unless certain criteria are met. This referendum was set up to have the result 'advisory' only - to be binding the majority percentage is normally stipulated - being 60/40 or a two thirds one - this is why the Irish one failed a few tears ago. The referendum was badly set up and not specific enough which is why this idea of the 'will of the people' etc is ridiculous - it was a 72% turnout - normally 75% is required - and with a much higher majority. Even Farage said before the vote that 48/52 was no majority to go by - changed his mind when it was unexpectedly for leave. The results are questionable because of the lower turnout and also the majority being so small - it was only 37% of the electorate and 28% of the population who voted 'out'. There is also the question of at least 25% of postal voters not receiving their papers in time. A very unsatisfactory result all round for such a massive change affecting the whole of the population.
However the Court case is not about this at all but not making a precedent with Parliament not being required to consent.

whitewave Fri 14-Oct-16 18:11:46

jalima yes she's one of a number of representatives.

whitewave Fri 14-Oct-16 18:10:35

No certainly not!shock I am worried about the way everything is going in the country

MaizieD Fri 14-Oct-16 18:06:16

Are you questioning the indendence of the judiciary, whitewave?

It is up to the courts to interpret the law objectively. That is, without any regard to the political situation that obtains at the time. If the challenge falls it should be on a point of law, not on what the Executive (TM) wants.

Should the 'Great' Repeal Act ever go ahead I think there will be further challenges as TM has already proposed that subsequent amendment of UK legislation would not be debated in Parliament. Chilling....

Jalima Fri 14-Oct-16 17:57:45

The OP is quite enigmatic and does not name names but I presume, after googling, that it refers to this case:

www.independent.co.uk/news/people/gina-miller-the-woman-who-could-derail-brexit-a7361221.html

whitewave Fri 14-Oct-16 16:32:17

I can't see that the court will go with Parliament in this climate though.