Brexit4

Thanks ana that should have read large minority..I am inclined to dash stuff off in between doing other still! In this case preparing supper.

The difference bags this was not an election. Cameron ballsed it up completely first by having a referendum in the first place and second showing his arrogance in the assumption that he would win. He should have ensured a 60% for change.

However we are where we are and contrary to what many are saying on here I accept the result because I am a democrat. Nevertheless i defend completely my right to criticise and I would hope everyone on GN supported me in that.

If the voting were switched around so that a "small majority" had voted to stay in the EU, I think all those who are arguing that the result is not a good enough result and government doesn't have to act on it would be saying the opposite. Do they not think so too? After all, it was expected, even by Leavers, that the Remain side would win and that the win would be by a "small majority".

Regardless of which way anyone voted, I find it astonishing that people don't just accept the result. We often have small majority results to elections. Small majorities from the people who bother to vote are still majorities. And that's how democracy works.

Even a single casting vote counts in some situations. Votes count. Non-votes do not.

Good point, niggly. Parliament should have made the decision in the first place. Cameron called for a referendum, because he's spineless and wanted to be seen as a populist.

What 'large majority' are you referring to, whitewave?

Trying to shut down debate is hardly democratic. I shall use my democratic right as I always have done to criticise whomever I wish with regard to political decisions.

I accept that the result was marginally in favour of leave, because I am a democrat. However because I am a democrat I think that the wishes of the large majority should also be heeded. Therefore I definitely think that Hard Brexit should not be an option. The hard reactionary right will of course push for it as they have their tails up at present, but the future is all to play for.

Both sides lied, you can't get away from that fact!! What on earth would be the point of having an expensive, devisive, referendum, if parliament can overturn a result that it doesn't like? why not let parliament make the decision in the first place and save having what would amount to a completely pointless exercise?!

The same Clegg who led his party to near oblivion in the last General Election?! The same Milliband who so stupidly opened a door (the £3 joining fee) allowing for the near decimation of his party?! I think a further period of silence from these two gentlemen would, for lots of people, be very welcome!!
ab, looking round the political leaders and regardless of political loyalties, I cannot see anyone, anywhere, even on the horizon with whom I would feel even remotely comfortable dealing with Brexit apart from Mrs May. Her task is not an enviable one. Inevitably she can't please all the people all of the time, and she will be undoubtedly be hounded by people intent on bringing her down, the aforesaid gents among them, but I for one have thrown in my lot with her so to speak and will remain positive for a satisfactory outcome!

So the Scottish Referendum is not binding?

No Pogs- it is because the majority is so small- but mainly because the campaign was based on lies- which have been found to be lies- and those lies swayed a mot of people who now realise they were cheated and lied to.

And also because it is implicit in UK Law, that a Referendum is not binding but advisory- so in above circumstances- it is even less so.

Ooops I did say I wouldn't participate- but as the question was aimed directly at me, it would have been rude not to.

Actually I didn't see thatbags post but it does run in line with my view.

Granjura re your post yesterday 21.10

Question
When can a democratic vote be ignored.

Answer
When it doesn't go your way.

This is exactly what is happening over Brexit and the likes of Clegg, Farron, Miliband, those who cannot accept the referendum result are trying their best to overturn a Democratic vote. They are either heroes to some or a disgrace to others.

On BBC's Question Time a questioner asked

"When playing games with my nephews and nieces I sometimes need to make it the best of three when they are loosing. How many Scottish referendums are we going to need"

Alex Salmond summed up exactly what I think makes the point I am trying to make in his reply which was this:-

"Nicola Sturgeon was re elected in May of this year with 47% of the vote, now that is a ' MANDATE' that the Conservative Party can only dream about"

On 19 September 2014, independence was rejected in the Scottish independence referendum, with 55.3% of the voters voting no and 44.7% voting yes. A 'MANDATE'

June 23rd 2016 The UK has voted to leave the EU by 52% to 48%. A 'MANDATE'

So why is it the same voices that consider one vote is a clear 'MANDATE' by the people but not another.

BECAUSE THE VOTE DID NOT GO THEIR WAY.

Very interesting.

And a very sensible final paragraph:

What we cannot afford to do is let those who refuse to accept the outcome of the referendum pour treacle all over the exit negotiations via time-consuming, uncertain and complex negotiations to stay in something that is not in our interests and commands no democratic legitimacy.

"...the CBI and the official Remain campaign, Stronger IN’,set out their cases based on leaving the Single Market, and Michael Gove for the official Leave campaign also stated in terms that a vote to leave was a vote to leave the Single Market.
Given that leaving the Single Market was one of the few certainties of the campaign, it is curious that the CBI, Treasury officials and Clegg himself are now discussing what they ruled out only a few months ago".

www.conservativehome.com/thecolumnists/2016/10/christopher-howarths-guide-to-brexit-why-we-have-to-leave-the-single-market-and-the-customs-union.html

The fact that this article is from "Conservative Home" may put some people off reading it but it is very clear on what different terms mean so it's a good read for information.

Thank you Tegan.

Granjura I feel as though you are not going to answer my questions re the Swiss and that surprises me .

"The government will implement what you decide".

granjura you did say you were leaving the thread .Water off a ducks back? That's alright then.
Nobody can blame some of us for being sick of the doom and gloom, and constant talking down of the economy, and as for whatever French and German papers are saying, so what, they are in the EU and bound to be sore about us leaving.

I don't recall anyone actually saying 'lighten up, can't you see the funny side' on here Tegan, but it must be terrible to see only doom and gloom in any given situation.

I'm sure some of you wouldn't be happy unless we were offered another referendum (to get it right this time!) or Theresa May decided Brexit was all too difficult and we'd have to remain in the EU. Then you'd soon cheer up!

Oh dear; computer malfunction again; should have said there's no point in discussing political affairs etc....

Tegan, if that is 'lighten up and gsoh' - no wonder some of us despair:

roses 'granjura has departed the thread.Oh dear, how sad, never mind.grin'

de l'eau sur le dos d'un canard - mais quand même !

^But a report by the Institute of Economic Affairs yesterday said Brexit would let the UK avoid the EU’s “costly agricultural regulations” which are likely to make food prices shoot up.

And it said quitting the EU would also make it easier for Britain to buy food from all around the world and bring down our prices more.^

There's absolutely no political affairs on gransnet I'm afraid. Other than people eg POGS who do put across good points/arguments that are worth reading, everything just turns into a slanging match at best and the constant criticisms of 'lighten up, can't you see the funny side' [what funny side?] are getting tiresome.

yes roses, it was nasty and unpleasant indeed- and as said, very close to bullying. Won't be running to mods though, not my style.

So no debate or discussion from me today- but just a comment

the pound yesterday fared just a little bit better, but not much, than the Haïtian Gourde - ah well.

dd your above post to Christingle highlights the snide remarks.

dd you say ' it's possible to comment on a situation intelligently without taking sides'
Really? So that is what you do is it? Hardly! Anyway, all who comment here have taken sides, either for leaving the EU or staying.I am amazed that the Remainers are still taking every opportunity to be unpleasant to those who voted to leave ( on this forum)had the Remain side had the majority, I think we would have been disappointed
But accepted it, I know that I would, and would have kept quiet about it on here.
It's understandable to wonder about Brexit, and what will happen, but all the constant snide remarks to other posters should stop.

@Christingle

So what form of leaving the EU did you vote for? I just want to be clear, so that I can't be accused of insulting anybody. ;-)