We will be hearing a lot of bluff and counter bluff from EU officials and heads of countries for a while.
When a political leader lies on their CV - can you trust them?
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Theresa May 3
(1001 Posts)Very interesting article about T May. Forgive me if it's been posted before.
I think that the author is proposing that the Murdoch media have been superseded by the Daily Mail in setting the agenda for 'British' and that Theresa May is a product and perpetrator of its agenda.
www.opendemocracy.net/uk/anthony-barnett/daily-mail-takes-power-0
The Daily Mail takes power
Anthony Barnett 5 October 2016
After 25 years in politics Theresa May has no obvious connections to any think tank. She shows no interest in ideas. Asked by Conservative Home in a Quick Quiz session to choose between Burke’s “Reflections on the Revolution in France” or Louise Bagshawe’s “Desire”, she replied, “I wouldn’t read either of them, sorry.” The prime minister who faces arguably the Kingdom’s deepest constitutional predicament since George III was driven from the Cabinet by the loss of the American colonies dismissed out of hand the idea that she might ever turn to the pages of Burke, even though as a student she had chaired a society named after him.
As the country faces an unprecedented concatenation of economic, strategic, diplomatic and constitutional uncertainty, the woman at the helm seems devoid of intellectual resources. The one decision she has definitely taken is to give the go ahead to Hinkley Point C nuclear power station, a boondoggle incapable of justification by any criteria of integrity. The Pharaohs built their own pyramids, Theodoric built his own mausoleum. But these were designed as monuments to generate the admiration of posterity. Surely only an idiot would make their first decision the go-ahead for a colossal radioactive tombstone to her regime.
But Theresa May should not be dismissed as an idiot. There is a striking and potentially formidable coherence to the general direction she has set for her new government, evidenced by the self-confidence of her ministers who remarkably quickly are singing from the same song-sheet. She does seem to have a clear ideology refreshingly different from her predecessors. Where has it come from?
The answer is The Daily Mail. On Sunday in her first speech to her party as its leader, she set out her view of Brexit and announced that she intends to trigger Article 50 to start the UK’s withdrawal from the EU before March. This was a moment of upmost gravity, to recognise and measure the immense divisions that have been opened up within the country, and consider the implications for the entire continent that Britain once helped liberate from fascism. Instead, her tone, brevity and apparent practicality were drawn as if directly from a Daily Mail editorial.
Intelligent comments section, too.
Of course we will. It's politics, isn't it? Surely no one expects 'em to say what they really think...
So, I'll repeat the questions I asked yesterday and got no answer to.
Did Leavers vote for the overriding of Parliamentary Sovereignty?
Did they vote for the UK to be ruled by an Oligarchy?
Porter's stance on Brexit is immaterial. He's talking about Parliamentary Sovereignty here.
No. What we want is a return of democracy.
Definitely not a student of British history.
How can we have the 'return' of something we have never had?
Malstrom has said that when negotiations start, she will publish everything that has been agreed, as it's agreed. She's very keen on transparency.
However, she's very clear that negotiations can't start until Article 50 is invoked and then the UK will have to wait its place in the queue.
Earlier this year, one of the other Swedish MEPs, Mats Karlsson said “I think she will be a very hard negotiator in that we did not create this problem, this was a problem created by Britain.”
I don't necessarily expect politicians to reveal their hand, but it would be helpful if journalism were more accurate. It's clear that one quote from the Daily Express didn't tell anything like the whole story.
We don't usually have quotes from the Daily Express on here at all, and the Telegraph is rather frowned upon, it being a tory paper and all. Makes me wonder what the Guardian said - must go and have a look.
Well, petra quoted from the Daily Express. I deliberately quoted from the Telegraph, so that I couldn't be accused of 'leftie' bias.
PS. Before the referendum, there was a poster who kept on quoting from the Daily Express - a few times a day.
Really? I hadn't realised you'd been with us that long, daphnedill.
I only know of one poster who quotes several times a day from the same publication - but she's still with us!
I think people made some statements before they had the mettle of TM.
Maizie D said sneered
Definitely not a student of British history.
Kindly refrain from pointless personal attacks Maizie, or I shall have little choice but to report you.
Ad hom attacks simply provoke aggression and turn discussion into argument.
How can we have the 'return' of something we have never had?
Are you suggesting Britain does not rank among 'democratic' nations?
Of course we are far from perfect but surely up there among the best, if not the best?
There is no doubt about it we were freer before the EU and our own elite gradually started reducing our freedoms.
MaizieD asked
"Did Leavers vote for the overriding of Parliamentary Sovereignty?"
"Did they vote for the UK to be ruled by an Oligarchy?"
These are loaded questions. Surely you realise this, so why are you being mischievous?
Are you suggesting Britain does not rank among 'democratic' nations?
As far as I am aware we have a a form of Parliamentary democracy since the execution of Charles 1 and the Interregnum when Parliament ruled in place of the Monarch. Parliament took more powers to itself even after the Restoration and we have ended up with a State in which Parliament is sovereign. How democratic we actually are is questionable considering that the franchise was only extended to all men over a certain age in the latter part of the 19th century and to all women, ditto, in the 1920s. What definition of 'democracy' are you working with?
Parliamentary democracy runs on a series of checks and balances on the Executive (the Government) provided by both Houses of Parliament and the Rule of Law. It is perfectly possible, and 'democratic' that Government measures can be defeated if Parliament decides that they are not in the interests of the country.This is not 'treason' or 'defying the wishes of the people', this is how it works.
Our 'democracy' has worked reasonably well until now when May is endeavouring to bypass our sovereign Parliament and possibly the Rule of Law.
So far as I can see, rather than 'returning' to a form of democracy we have never lost we are in danger of losing the Parliamentary democracy we have operated under for at least 100 years.
If people wish to change the Government they are able to do it through the ballot box. Any other way would be revolution. So far the British haven't really 'done' revolution (the English Civil War and 1688 being power struggles among the Elite rather than true revolutions)
I would actually agree with you that we are, in some ways, less 'free' now than we were in the 1970s but that is a result of domestic policy, not the EU.
There is no doubt about it we were freer before the EU and our own elite gradually started reducing our freedoms.
But 'the people' have acquiesced in that by voting for the governments who've been doing the reducing.
Goodness, we had a long thread only recently on here where people of all shades of political opinion were perfectly happy with the introduction of ID cards despite their potential for absolute control of populations
These are loaded questions
Loaded with what, Mair?
I'm trying to find out if what is happening now is actually what people voted for. And if they particularly care about the British constitution.
Another 'muttering' from Davos.
This time from JP Morgan boss, Jamie Dimon.
He said " ^ Europe must change to avoid this breakup.... but said he's not sure this is going to happen^
^ if you were wishful thinking, which I kind of was, a little bit, is that brexit would cause the eu to look at what went wrong and fix it * because what went wrong is going wrong for everybody, not just Britain*^
^ But in some ways they're just doubling down....... they're not fixing it^
Maizie said;
"I would actually agree with you that we are, in some ways, less 'free' now than we were in the 1970s but that is a result of domestic policy, not the EU."
I would agree that it is in substantial part our domestic governments to blame, for example for the HRA which has made it considerably easier for example for foreign criminals to avoid deportation. To my knowledge no other EU state has done this.
"But 'the people' have acquiesced in that by voting for the governments who've been doing the reducing."
Its been done by stealth, and we have limited real choice at the ballot box.
"Loaded with what, Mair?"
Entrapment Maizie.
As you well know, people voted for the referendum to be enacted not for parliament to have a 'say' over it.
Parliamentary say is not more democratic than direct democracy.
Personally I would like to see more referenda, as in Switzerland.
People voted to advise parliament, Mair, not to instruct parliament. We live in a representative democracy.
Where's Granjura when you need her?
Oh come on Varian we, the people were told that whatever we voted for would be acted upon....this weaselly 'advised' is to try and get it not acted upon.It's playing with words, yes we voted to advise Parliament that we wanted out of the EU, and they in turn, promised to deliver it.
I am sure they will deliver it, but not without a fight from some MP's who are ardent Remainers.
There can be no going back on the promise to leave the EU now ( so nobody must get their hopes up!)
Why would granjura be able to say anything better than you can, durhamjen?
I do think a great many really believe that there will have to be a second referendum if they complain enough, roses.
In fact they probably can't believe that it won't happen.
Unless it was in French 
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