Is the sexual orientation of a judge relevent?

It was in the form of a loan,albeit on good terms. A lot of the Marshall plan aid was in the form of non reusable grants, Apparantly the US didn't realise just how broke we were. We borrowed £3bn+ from the US and the Canadians topped it up with another £1bn+.

I think that was something slightly different, Elegran. The US lent us money to buy arms and other equipment (Lend Lease), which wasn't all paid back until about 2006. Marshal Plan funding was different and intended to boost the post-war economy. Fitzy is right. The UK received more than any other country, but we squandered it.

We did manage to pay it back to the US eventually - a long time later. Not many people realise that it was not a gift, it was a loan, with interest.

The UK received the highest proportion of US aid under the Marshall plan. A long story but we wasted ours.

The trigger for the 70s economic crisis was the oil crisis, but the UK was already in trouble, because its industry was antiquated and we had been bumbling along for years thinking that we still lived in a pre-war industrial era with an empire. Japan and Germany had to start from scratch with new industry, new political structures and new social attitudes. Germany and France also benefited from post-war co-operation on a scale they had never dreamed of before, supported by the US, which wanted a buffer against communism and a market for its own goods.

The 70s economic crisis was caused by the Arab embargo on oil sales to the USA and Western Europe after the Yom KIppur War.

Details in the link below, which is from the Guardian so utterly to be relied on

www.theguardian.com/environment/2011/mar/03/1970s-oil-price-shock

Maizie you are mixing up decades.MacMillan said that famous quote during the 1950's.The 70's problems were nothing to do with WW2 in any way or loss of Empire.
But we did have many problems due to the unions flexing muscles, remember the flying pickets etc it was a mess round about that time.

I agree with JessM about the miners' strike. I'm sure it left a lasting impression on the people involved, but I can't say it made me feel divided in the same way that Brexit has done.

I did think of the Depression, Fitzy, but although it was probably an early manifestation of the downside of globalisation, it didn't hit the whole country equally, some sectors did perfectly well despite it and we had the Empire to fall back on. I think that the problems of the 70s were part of post WW2 problems and loss of Empire. MacMillan might have said "We've never had it so good" but he was a politician, wasn't he

Yes, he was probably right in one way, as the Welfare State offered people previously unheard of security and kept money flowing through the system, but it was at a cost, as we discovered in the 70s.

What I do recall was that we were practically begging to be let into the Common Market...

For sheer divisiveness I think the Brexit vote will have a long lasting impact; the General Strike was over and done with in a relatively short period of time.

And look where the depression got us... WW2
I think we feel far more divided now than during the miners' strike

Mazie- in terms of financial crises, i would think the Great Depression was the worst we've faced (though we were in severe trouble on more than one occasion in the 70s and ended up going cap in hand for bailouts to the IMF). For divisiveness, I would think the worst periods were the general strike in 1926 and the miners' strike in the 80s. Jess- i'm also worried about the effects of Brexit. I'm what you might call a miserable optimist. Anyway, I'm glad to see you are laughing.

Yes he will be in the house , he is safe there , no questions to answer .

I think you'll find him in parliament today. There's a debate on exiting the EU and workers' rights.

Yes he could win but would need to come out of hiding to fight an election and convince middle England to vote red labour

On the other hand, he could win, in which case he wouldn't stand down.

An election always decides who can lead a party to victory. I have dreaded an early election because it will cost labour many seats, but it may be for the best, with luck Corbyn would stand down and what ever is left of the Labour Party can unite and choose a leader who will give live tv interviews, not run from the press squeaking - I am being harassed, give live interviews to 'Today' have the courage to face the hustings not depend on momentum arranged rallies .

Well, roses, Michael Sheen thinks that if there was a general election soon, at least Labour would find out whether Corbyn could lead it to victory, and then at least all those who do not support him would have to decide where they stand.
I agree. A general election now would clear the air, instead of having another few years of carping in the background.

JessM I dont recall Fitzy ever mentioning World War 2

WW2 seems a reasonable conclusion to come to given what Fitzy said. I'm hard put to think of any other period in our recent past (say, 200 years) when Britain was in dire economic straits.

Or even so visibly divided...

I wouldn't look eagerly forward to a GE if I were you djen as you are sure not to like the results.
JessM I dont recall Fitzy ever mentioning World War 2 (Lol)

theconversation.com/so-parliament-gets-a-pre-brexit-vote-but-what-will-it-be-voting-on-68248

Case for a general election after the parliamentary vote.

LOL just because WW2 killed lots of people, bombed the hearts out of many cities and left us in vast debt to the USA, and after a couple of decades we managed to rebuild, and quite a few more to pay back the States, then we are being miserable pessimists to worry about the effects of Brexit.

Good summary, and from my standpoint a good place for me to leave this discussion, but just to say the country has been though much, much worse than Brexit, however hard, and managed, and eventually thrived. Keep your glass half full!

I agree with you and think it's worrying. I, too, accept that we're leaving, but really the work has only just started. One of my many reasons for wishing to stay is that the EU offers UK citizens some protection against its own government, which is a pretty sad state of affairs. That's why I'm glad we have the likes of Clegg and Starmer keeping an eye on what's happening. I wonder how many people really understand the implications.

I also find the 'secret deal' with Nissan quite worrying. I'm glad for the people who will keep their jobs, but I also think cherry picking is the beginning of a slippery slope to nudge nudge wink wink backhanders.

One way or the other, I suspect we're heading for 'hard Brexit', which is almost certainly going to be a disaster for the country. The remaining EU countries really don't need the UK that much and the chance that they will allow us any special deals with the single market are almost nil. If it means that banks, other financial services, IT companies and pharmaceutical research move to other EU countries, the UK is stuffed. And then there are the Ireland and Gibraltar questions...

I don't even think it's possible for people who voted Brexit to get what they wanted (whatever it was).

Fortunately, UKIP is doing a pretty good job of destroying itself, but that won't destroy the motivation for voting for them. What's happening in parliament at the moment is as much about political parties in disarray as it is about steering a course which is good for the country.

Daphne, I can see your point, but in truth the choice is either to leave, in line with the majority decision and on the best terms we can get, albeit that they are likely to be pretty bad terms, or to remain despite the majority decision to leave. We can argue until the cows come home about what the majority really want, but we have really gone about as far as we can to find out what they want. I have no interest in appeasing UKIP - but I do respect the decision that went against the minority, of which I was one, and absolutely abhor the prospect of a process that could bring UKIP to the forefront of British politics.

Actually the more you reflect on that headline the worse it gets.