An oath on British Values?

It isn't double standards, but natural to want good treatment for Brits abroad, if we are going to mete out good treatment to foreign nationals here.In the end, I think we will agree terms with the EU on this sooner rather than later.

So people who go to live in foreign countries remain British citizens and must be considered before all others, even those who choose to live here and pay taxes. These EU people of course should take British citizenship and not keep their own nationality. Talk about double standards!

it certainy is true. Furthermore it's worrying how so many seem to be happy to do down their own country and would prefer [like Sturgeon] to be ruled by Brussels rather than be part of the UK and the bond we have had for hundreds of years.

Mair Your post at 09.33. OH how true.

Cheers FireC

I also think there is a great deal of feigned anxiety from the Remainers about the alleged concerns of EUers. The only EUers who need be fearful are those not working and claiming benefits, and they should be expelled, as they could be even now under existing EU law, if only Government had the will to do so.

They actively want to see Mays bargaining tools taken away from her in the hope that we end up with such a soft Brexit that its almost meaningless (a Norway type deal).

I actually believe that the Bremoaners (by whom I mean not everyone who voted Remain Maisie, before you object to my use of the word, but only the extremist minority who wish to ignore democracy and override the wishes of the majority), do not actually have concerns for Britain's economic future as a priority, but simply have a deep rooted hatred for Britain and are ideologically wedded to the EU project.

Many, but not all by any means, are hard core far left international Marxists at heart and see the EU as a step in pursuit of their agenda. Right wing open borders corporatists also see the EU as a step to a world without borders. Those of us who wish to see the continuation of democracy through nation states face opposition from both ends of the spectrum.

Totally agree with you Mair well said. For once we need to put our own citizens first.

Following on from my previous comments about faith schools:

www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/accelerated-christian-education-europe-ofsted-dfe-inspection-report-a7502616.html

This is one of the barriers to agreed British values. Teachers have known this has been going on for years. Finally, Ofsted has looked below the surface.

There are 3 million people involved in this.
If you know anyone affected, ask them to look at this website.

www.the3million.org.uk/

But a good proportion of the EU nationals who are here have no particular wish to settle here

Surveys show most do want to remain, and many more will as life takes over and they become more settled and their English improves.
Generally they absolutely love it here and are financially better off, why do you think they'd want to go back?
Even the Brexit vote isnt discouraging them unfortunately despite all the predictions of economic disaster from the Bremain side.

They are students or seasonal workers
They start off this way, then after a year or so they find permanent jobs and want to stay

Amazed that you think that messing up people's lives is a good 'bargaining' tool. This isn't the Game of Thrones, you know...

I dont want to see the lives of fellow Brits living in the EU messed up by a vengeful EU bent on a spiteful Brexit, those Brits who you do not give one iota about. Their needs should come above those of EUers in my book and in those of our Government, whose first duty is to our own citizens.

The larger numbers here mean May is ina strong position to ngotiate good conditions for Brits in the EU (sic)

But a good proportion of the EU nationals who are here have no particular wish to settle here. They are students or seasonal workers. Amazed that you think that messing up people's lives is a good 'bargaining' tool. This isn't the Game of Thrones, you know...

but one or two are using it as an excuse to have a go at you

Nothing like judging others by your own standards, roses.

oh the 'please sir, could I have some more?'

Mair Fortunately, i think that May isn't as spineless, gutless, and any other 'less' that you can think of as was Cameron when he did his Oliver Twist impersonation at the eu table.

There certainly is a fair way, and that is that rights must match both ways, and if May simply gives away rights to EUers then there can be no guarantee that the EU will treat Brits equally well.

It's not just about right to remain either but rights to jobs, schooling, benefits , health care. May would be utterly irresponsible if she guaranteed all this for millions of EUers, while the EU keeps British migrants in limbo and continues making aggressive threatening pronouncements towards Britain.

IMO EUers living here should be lobbying their own governments to treat Britain and British immigrants well. This is the best way to secure their future here.

Mair it was quite obvious to anyone with half a brain that you were talking about a kicking at the elections, but one or two are using it as an excuse to have a go at you and are very likely hoping you will leave these threads so that they can have it back to themselves.Glad to see that you are made of sterner stuff.
Agree that May should soon sort out with EU leaders what stance will be taken about Brits in the EU countries, and likewise EU people over here.
We have had all this emotive stuff from you many times djen with regard to family members, and you always say 'why should they have to' etc but now they may really have to, and why not, if it secures them here.

Mair I'm not suggesting for one nano second that May should ease restrictions unilaterally. But there has to be a fair way of doing this.
Unfortunately this isn't a forum where one can discuss sensibly who can and who can't stay.

They're going to have to agree the same 'terms' for our nationals so why prat about?
"Have to"?
Why? Who is to say the EU wont throw them out? You seem to think EUers here could be 'thrown out' after all?

The difference in numbers is immaterial.
No it's not. The larger numbers here mean May is ina strong position to ngotiate good conditions for Brits in the EU

Particularly as 'our' EU nationals probably cost us less than the British nationals abroad, as most of them are working, paying taxes and spending money in our economy. A great many Brits in the EU are retirees and only doing the latter.

You have no evidence for this wild comparative 'cost/benefit' balance. For one thing many Brits who go there take a large amount of capital and buy their own home (often run down rural properties which they renovate bringing work to local people). Consider this couple featured on TV for example:
chateaudelamottehusson.com/dick-angel/

Like so many who voted Remain you appear to hate and wish to dnigrate Brits at every turn!

(Yes, I know that some EU workers in the UK are sending money 'home' to their own countries but I doubt if it loses us a great deal. I shall go off and look it up!)
They certainly do!
Most are claiming in work benefits (because of their low wages).
They are also increasingly occupying social housing , putting huge strains on maternity services, and in many cases taking low skill but NOT unpleasant jobs that Britons certainly DO want to do, in shops and offices!

surely you arent suggesting May should ease restrictions unilaterally?

They're going to have to agree the same 'terms' for our nationals so why prat about? The difference in numbers is immaterial. Particularly as 'our' EU nationals probably cost us less than the British nationals abroad, as most of them are working, paying taxes and spending money in our economy. A great many Brits in the EU are retirees and only doing the latter. (Yes, I know that some EU workers in the UK are sending money 'home' to their own countries but I doubt if it loses us a great deal. I shall go off and look it up!)

Perhaps a goodwill gesture of unilateral guarantees for EU citizens might affect the EU's negotiating stance. But, of course, we have precious little else to negotiate with so I suppose May has to cling onto the straws.

I believe, as do many others who voted to leave, think that immigrants who are working, have a family, been here for a number of years be given citizenship ( if they want it)

Petra those who have lived here five years are entitled to apply.
This is a shorter 'wait' for citizenship than some EU countries impose and the conditions are less strict. German citizenship is much tougher to earn. Again surely you arent suggesting May should ease restrictions unilaterally?

WRT being indifferent to the Brits in the EU I don't recall having said anything that would give you that impression

I didnt say you personally had, but there is a callous indifference towards them emanating from those 'Remain' voters who want May to recklessly guarantee the future of EUers here unilaterally.

I would extend that to say that any complaints about the situation of these EUers which fails to acknowledge the two sides of the coin is a demonstration of this attitude.

They should both get the same treatment.

Absolutely which means May cannot afford to guarantee the rights of EUers unilaterally, throwing British citizens on the mercy of the EU which so far is showing itself (as Remainers like to emphasize) tending towards playing hardball.

I think it is pointless and unkind to use British nationals in the EU and EU nationals in the UK as bargaining chips.

Sadly unavoidable while the EU plays truculent and eager to "punish" Britain. May would be absolutely MAD to throw this powerful chip away (bearing in mind there are more EUers here than Brits over there).

the viciously biased anti UKIP blog that Daphne linked to!

I'm getting lost off here! Can you relink to this blog, please. I don't condone the language of violence on either side.

WRT being indifferent to the Brits in the EU I don't recall having said anything that would give you that impression. I think it is pointless and unkind to use British nationals in the EU and EU nationals in the UK as bargaining chips. They should both get the same treatment. Which, in my opinion, is guaranteeing the right to remain for both if they were resident at the time of the referendum. That includes access to pensions and medical care on the same terms as now. It is patently unfair to disrupt people's lives unnecessarily.

As many of you know I voted to leave the eu, but I really do think that this home office attitude is bordering on a monty python sketch.

I believe, as do many others who voted to leave, think that immigrants who are working, have a family, been here for a number of years be given citizenship ( if they want it)

There is Daphne. Its called 'willpower'.

In context Maizie, it is certainly mild compared to the viciously biased anti UKIP blog that Daphne linked to!
AND I clearly meant it metaphorically, a kicking at the polls.

I am not suggesting physical violence towards Merkel which you seem to wish to imply. I simply hope Merkel does get a good kicking in the elections.

Indeed, Maizie! Shame there isn't an 'ignore' function on Gransnet.