An oath on British Values?

If you think that 'taking a kicking' is 'mild mannered' then we clearly have completely different values and there is nothing more to be said.

Ok Maizie sorry to call people Bremoaners. Perhaps you should bear in mind the need to keep "civil" when on the other thread you rudely described me as a 'charmer' for making a pretty mild mannered comment about a politician?

Lets keep it polite indeed!

I have heard numerous callers on phone ins demanding that EUers rights be protected unilaterally.

Of course this shows a callous contempt for the protection of British citizens who are living in the EU. It would be utterly irresponsible for May not to put their interests first.

I am finding the attitude of Bremoaners to the future security of British immigrants in the EU equally callous and contemptuous.

I'm sorry!! Would you care to give us an example? It wasn't a 'remainer' who told Granjura it was 'tough luck' when she said how their pension had lost 20% in value and that they had had to abandon plans for the holiday of a lifetime because of the Brexit vote.

And, you might not have been around at the time but it was agreed that in the interests of remaining fairly civil on these threads neither 'side' would use derogatory titles for each other.

There are hundreds, if not thousands of EU citizens in this position, long term resident, British spouses, who have never needed to take British nationality in order to be here legally.

I'm finding some Leavers' reactions to stories of loss, uncertainty and disruption of lives caused by the Brexit vote on this thread, and others, to be almost unbelievable. Mean minded, contemptuous of 'foreigners' and completely lacking in empathy. I begin to wonder if these are actually more representative of British Values than we had previously thought.

I am finding the attitude of Bremoaners to the future security of British immigrants in the EU equally callous and contemptuous.

Why do you ONLY care about EUers here and not Brits over there?

May needs to strike a deal protecting both.

So what exactly do you think British values should be, Mair? How would British and Danish values differ? I would have thought they would be quite similar.

I havent commented about British values daph. I commented simply about the IMO entirely false hysteria over the likelihood of EUers with British spouses being 'kicked out'. It will not happen other than in the equally unlikely scenario that the EU or a member state chooses to treat Brits married to EUers in this way.

Perhaps your DILS should focus on lobbying their governments to treat British immigrants well?

I agree with your last sentence, Maizie. Such attitudes have been evident throughout the debate.

I don't think you've read the article very closely, Mair. she hadn't previously applied for British citizenship because she didn't have to. She was entitled to be here as an EU citizen. It appears that she applied for British citizenship after the referendum because of the uncertainty about the future status of EU nationals who are currently settled in the UK. She couldn't supply her passport for an extended length of time (and it took 4 months for the Home Office to process her application) because she needed to frequently travel to the Netherlands. She supplied a full explanation of why she couldn't supply the original but did supply a notarised copy of it. This seems to be completely reasonable. In fact, the unreasonableness seems to be on the part of the Home Office who took such a long time to process her application. And the fact of potentially depriving her of her passport for 4 months.

There are hundreds, if not thousands of EU citizens in this position, long term resident, British spouses, who have never needed to take British nationality in order to be here legally.

I'm finding some Leavers' reactions to stories of loss, uncertainty and disruption of lives caused by the Brexit vote on this thread, and others, to be almost unbelievable. Mean minded, contemptuous of 'foreigners' and completely lacking in empathy. I begin to wonder if these are actually more representative of British Values than we had previously thought.

So what exactly do you think British values should be, Mair? How would British and Danish values differ? I would have thought they would be quite similar.

The son of a friend ended up paying nearly £5000 for full British citizenship. It was worth it to him, for all sorts of reasons, but I'm not convinced that the paperwork involved actually cost that much.

What are these British values which are worth £5000 per individual?

Durham said
^No it doesn't, Mair.
Read the links. They are about married people who have been told they have to leave the UK, even though they are married to UK citizens.^

As Anya has said that silly Dutchwoman has only herself to blame!
She wasnt even willing to hand in her passport! Does sh think British citizenship should be handed out like smarties?

"Hawkins said the Home Office had overlooked vital information in her submission – she was unable to supply an original of her Dutch passport because her father had recently died and she needed her passport to continue to travel to the Netherlands to support her mother."

If your DILs are concerned they should simply get their citizenship sorted.

www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/dec/12/the3million-campaign-group-letter-theresa-may-eu-citizens-in-uk-right-to-remain

Apllying for a permanent residency visa is the very expensive part of the process which is necessary if you want to live and work in many countries. I am not sure how much extra that citizenship costs after that.

Nothing to add except to say that members of my family have dual nationality because it seemed the sensible thing to do if they reside in a country other than their birth country. It's not the UK at fault if Danes were not allowed dual nationality - the same thing has happened with Danish/Australian friends due to Denmark's stance on nationality.

I think that's a bit harsh, Anya. I know plenty of EU citizens who are in the same situation. With the UK in the EU, there was no need to take out citizenship. The only difference is that they can't vote in the UK. Although not in the EU, my uncle and aunt emigrated to Canada in the 1970s and never took out Canadian citizenship. They were residents, worked there, paid their taxes, etc etc. They always felt British, but were loyal to Canada. I've never been in that situation, so I'm not sure what I'd do. Taking out citizenship can be an expensive process, so maybe I wouldn't bother, unless there were advantages.

That is rubbish the simple fact is she had the opportunity to take out British citizenship and she didn't bother. And what's all this emotive 'how dare she?' rubbish. Don't follow your 'reasoning'.

It's OK you trying to put a spin on this but it's a bit like saying 'I knew my pension wasn't going to cover my needs but didn't get round to topping it up' an then moaning it's too little, when you've had 24 years to get things sorted. And just because your DIL made the same mistake doesn't make her any better. There are plenty of foreign nationals who married UK citizens who had the foresight to take out British Citizenship if it really mattered to them.

And here we go playing the compassion card. Of course there's only some who have the monopoly on compassion and the rest of us hard-hearted bitches. You've over played that card too often. Her father dying in the Nederland, that was a long drawn out death over 24 years then was it?

The only logical response to this last series of postings is "How bizarre!" Talk about down the [white] rabbit hole. My father emigrated to England from The Netherlands in 1915 at the age of three. He was educated and grew up there, worked and paid taxes there, married a Brit, bought a house, fathered and supported two daughters through to the end of higher education. He spoke perfect English (as well as quite a few other languages). He had no desire to become a British citizen, although he had some strong political views but could not vote, and never did. There was a wee glitch about his right to residency in 1945 – as there was for many – but that was quickly sorted out. He died in 1979 so the EU, the Schengen agreement and so on really did not affect his life.

Sometimes immigrants want to become citizens of their new country; sometimes they don't, especially if it means relinquishing their original citizenship. It doesn't mean that they haven't become a worthwhile participant in their new country's society. I haven't decided yet whether I shall apply for citizenship in NZ. I have residential status and cannot apply for citizenship for another couple of years. It's quite an expensive process here. Does anyone know what it costs in the UK? Here, we have to swear an oath to the Queen and her successors but I don't think anyone, even our recently resigned right-wing prime minister, has suggested an oath on New Zealand values.

No it doesn't, Mair.
Read the links. They are about married people who have been told they have to leave the UK, even though they are married to UK citizens.

Durham. If your DILs are Europeans married to Brits, or Brits married to Europeans, they are not "in limbo" since their marriage secures their place in Britain or in an EU country.

Exactly, Maizie, which is why my two daughters in law have not changed their citizenship - they didn't have to, and they still think of the country they were born in as important.
Up until June it wasn't important to think about changing it. They are European, like we still are. But now, they are in limbo. The people in the article are really being used as pawns in the game of Brexit.

So if you can't surrender your passport for about 6 months you can't become a British citizen, if you can't remember every single instance when you left the country in the last 20 odd years and list it you can't become a British citizen. In fact if you are an EU national it is bloody difficult to become a British Citizen, even if you are married to a Brit and have lived and worked here for yonks. You couldn't make it up!!
I don't see how these regulations fit in with our alleged tolerance!

But surely 'nationality' is more than just being an official 'citizen' of a country?

I would still feel English even if I'd been obliged to change my citizenship status.

Maizie, some countries do not accept dual nationality, so if you take citizenship of the country you live in, you have to relinquish the citizenship of the country you were born in.

I suppose some do not want to give up their nationality

Is citizenship the same as nationality?

This is surely a consequence of T May's refusal to confirm the residency rights of non British EU nationals post Brexit. It seems the claim is that she's using it as a bargaining counter. Which is daft as many of the other EU countries have our British citizens living there. The one cancels out the other.

She's not the only one, either.

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/dec/01/eu-citizens-in-britain-post-brexit-vote-feel-betrayed-not-at-home-sad

Whoever made up the rules is an idiot. I think it was Theresa May, in the Home Office when these rules came about.
There's one woman in that article who had to get her children's school to write a letter to say she was at the school gates every day, because she was a stay at home mum, and had no documentation in her name. There's a German engineer, who needs his passport to travel every week, and was sent the same letter.

The law really is an ass, in these cases.

I suppose some do not want to give up their nationality . Will this apply to the British who have retired to Spain?

Because it's quite legal to do. Until Brexit there was no need.
Neither of my daughters in law have taken British citizenship.
It's nothing to do with having your cake and eating it.
If you read the article you will see she has been contributing to the country, not just taking from it.
One of my daughters in law has been in the country for over 20 years. She's teaching British children.....how dare she? She has two children with my son. How dare she do that and not become a British citizen! Very remiss of her, too.
The other one is also teaching British children.
What? Foreigners teaching British children!

Strange you don't have any compassion for someone who couldn't give her Dutch passport to the authorities for the required length of time because her father was dying in the Netherlands.
Did you miss that bit out when you read the article?
She obeyed the laws, she did nothing wrong. She is in danger of being split from her family because of an administrative error.