An oath on British Values?

EU nurses do have to take an English language test.

www.britishcouncil.org/organisation/press/european-nurses-must-prove-english-ability-practise-uk

Elegran
Of course we know there are various reasons why people come here, but you are drifting.

My response was to Jess's use of the MOs piece of research suggesting immigrants were an economic 'benefit' and the distinction I made was purely in an economic context hence perfectly valid. This is the trouble when people join a thread without having followed previous posts. We all do it I know, but it does lead to red herrings!

And where on earth did this idea that Australians are only coming here as professionals like doctors. Visit any big city and London in particular and you will find Aussies in many jobs like bar work and catering.
All kinds of jobs from bar work up to Government Ministers (although not sure if we have any at the present time).

Australian nurses have to jump through many hoops to work in the UK - including taking an English language examination at their own expense - whereas nurses from the EU do not. That is a very odd situation. Plus a visa and probably they may well be required to take a Masters degree, again at their own expense.
www.nurseuncut.com.au/how-australians-can-get-nursing-jobs-in-the-uk/

"Third World!!!!!! Blimey haven't heard that used for about 30 years."
Sneering again WW?
(Not to mention trying to dictate what words other posters may us!)

Well youve been keeping your eyes closed

www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2010/04/the-term-third-world-country-refers-to-the-politics-and-economic-structure-of-a-country-not-its-developmental-state-or-wealth/

www.globalissues.org/issue/28/third-world-debt-undermines-development

www.britannica.com/topic/Third-World-debt

I was interrupted by the doorbell before I had finished my post about different kin ds of incomers, so I posted with it incomplete. I meant to add other reasons for people being here - education (and paying heavily for the privilege), war and repression in their home countries, natural disasters on scales unknown here, depletion of resources in their own countries by multinational companies making money for the already wealthy, the chance of employment here in jobs that the natives seem not to want (too degrading to clean up for others or serve them?) IO am sure there are many more reasons too.

You can't just divide them into those with high-grade qualifications (to be welcomed) and low-grade qualifications (to be banned)

Re women from other countries and degrees- at my GSs birthday party I was talking to a mum from his nursery, both parents were from Dubai and studying for their Masters degrees.

Hear hear

And where on earth did this idea that Australians are only coming here as professionals like doctors. Visit any big city and London in particular and you will find Aussies in many jobs like bar work and catering. As Adam Hill said on The Last Leg, "That's OK we will all b****r off home and you can pull your own pints" (approximate quote). They sometimes stay they sometimes don't.
Immigrants are like any other section of the population, there are costs and benefits. The trouble with what is happening now is we are in danger of losing the benefits because of stupid, unfounded, hysterical reactions. By the time we realise what is happening it will be too late and we will be left with badly staffed, inadequate services in the NHS, a lack of professional staff all round and no service industries whatsoever. Talk about throwing the baby out with the bathwater!

Interrogating again mair ?

Third World!!!!!! Blimey haven't heard that used for about 30 years.

My son made many friends at university from China. Not one of them remained in the U.K. He spent a lot of time travelling with them and some of them did stay in other countries, but most are now back either in China or HK.

WW
I am still waiting for you to develop your claim that you do not support uncontrolled immigration from the EU despite being a devoted Bremoaner Remainer?

No need for coyness!

Maizie said:

espcially when they later bring in a wife from their homeland.

Can't help noticing the assumption that these graduates are male.

Fair point Maizie (though trivial nit picking)

And yes definitely women too who later bring in a husband!
But due to the extremely patriarchal nature of most Third World societies I am confident you will still find the majority of university students from those countries are still male even in the twenty first century.

dj I introduced the term because it is a term Farage uses so I have no doubt he, as ex- leader or is he leader now I can't keep track, would use that to describe immigrants that carry out unskilled labour. He is such a charmer isn't he??

"A horrible idea, mair, low grade economic immigrants"

Which was NOT a term I used.
Learn to read.

Yes, Maizie. The immigrants in my family all came here as students, graduated and stayed, then married men.
They weren't "brought in".

If you mean "people willing to do minimum wage work, work inconvenient hours and live in overcrowded conditions"

I am amazed that people on the left are keen to encourage this.
There used to be a name for workers who accepted such conditions - blacklegs!

well if we stopped taking in EU and other visitors <sic> who were willing to tick those boxes, London would grind to a halt. No catering of any kind, no cleaning, no hotels open etc etc

What absolute rubbish Jess. Nobody is talking of throwing out those already here, simply preventing low paying employers importing more!

Of course it would be harder for employers to fill those roles, and what a good thing, more power to the workers eh? Dont you approve of that?

It would also encourage more mechanisation (good), more flexibility of working conditions (very good espcially for women),
and mean some of the poorer badly run businesses would go bust. Whats not to like?

A horrible idea, mair, low grade economic immigrants.

"You do realise that this study was a basic input output snapshot and did not take into account immigrants lack of previous contributions to the infrastructure they use (roads, schools, hospitals, housing etc paid for by our parents and grandparents), or the changing impact they are likely to have over time, dont you?"

Right from when I was a baby, my parents had Nigerian, German, Italian and West Indian trainee and qualified doctors, nurses, architects, lawyers and teachers living in our house. That's just from memory.
They were not low grade economic migrants. They were the people that designed and staffed our schools, hospitals and other buildings.
I find your posts very sinister.

..espcially when they later bring in a wife from their homeland.

Can't help noticing the assumption that these graduates are male.

"When it comes to migrants from the Third World however, generally the "lowest value" immigrants the vast majority do not go home, for understandable reasons."

The UK has had complete control over immigration from the Third World for many decades. If 'illegal overstayers' aren't deported, that's down to the efficiency (or lack of) of the UK immigration authorities.

I wonder what a 'high value' degree is. Whatever it is, the students are still paying top prices and keeping UK universities afloat. Many of them actually go on to become relatively low paid researchers and scientists, thus boosting the UK economy.

Please point out to me where I have said" I think we should allow unlimited numbers into the UK" and I will correct it.

Of course you give that impression because you are a Remainer (indeed a Bremoaning Remainer)

Remaining in the EU = Support for unlimited immigration from and via the EU
(bear in mind any Third Worlder who has EU citizenship or permanent residency can come here).

You resolutely refuse to say how you would wish to see this changed (if at all) and how many immigrants (ball park figures) you would find acceptable.

I would like to see gross immigration reduced to under 100K a year myself, and highly selective, the creme de la creme.
I would deal with any temporary skill shortages by using temporary immigrants on strict contracts, with no hope of permanent settlement.

What about you?
Set out your stall your own wishes only no generic ramblings.

"high value" and "grade" both sound like fascist terminology to me.
If you mean "people willing to do minimum wage work, work inconvenient hours and live in overcrowded conditions" - well if we stopped taking in EU and other visitors who were willing to tick those boxes, London would grind to a halt. No catering of any kind, no cleaning, no hotels open etc etc

Elegran

You raise a good point, and I think you would find few object to those firt group. Many "high value" Australians in particular fall into that first group, as do many immigrants from Western European countries.

When it comes to migrants from the Third World however, generally the "lowest value" immigrants the vast majority do not go home, for understandable reasons. Eastern Europeans fall somewhere between these two groups butt surveys hav shown the majority intend to stay for ever.

However there is no clear blue line between the 'temporary' and 'permanent' as intentions change over time, and intentions are often concealed. Those illegal overstayers who come here on three month student visas are not going to have revealedd their plans! Many university students too intend to remain here to work after qualifying, and most are not doing 'high value' degrees and many like our own grads just take non graduate jobs and are not a 'benefit' espcially when they later bring in a wife from their homeland.

Please point out to me where I have said" I think we should allow unlimited numbers into the UK" and I will correct it.

You simply keep repeating that myth because you are concerned to keep that thought in people's minds - another populist trick.

I would be interested in your ideas about the economy, and social policy and education and environment and defence and foreign policy etc to get a more rounded picture if your fundamental beliefs as all you seem concerned with is immigration which is a tad limited.

Grade is a favourite word used by your leader.

So WW why do you want to continue to allow in unlimited numbers of "low economic value" immigrants, who provide us with no benefit, indeed only disadvantage us and our children and grandchildren, when we could be taking only "high value" who pay in more than they take?