An oath on British Values?

Paul Dacre in defense of the DM article:

Our point was simply this: Ralph Miliband was, as a Marxist, committed to smashing the institutions that make Britain distinctively British

Paul Dacre on the Mail's controversial headline:

The paper therefore reasoned that "the public had the right to know what influence the Labour leader's Marxist father, to whom he constantly referred in his speeches, had on his thinking", he wrote.

Journalist Geoffrey Levy's 1 October article examined the views of Ralph Miliband - who died in 1994 - "over his lifetime, not just as a 17-year-old youth as has been alleged by our critics", Mr Dacre said.

"The picture that emerged was of a man who gave unqualified support to Russian totalitarianism until the mid-50s, who loathed the market economy, was in favour of a workers' revolution, denigrated British traditions and institutions such as the Royal Family, the church and the Army and was overtly dismissive of western democracy."

Mr Dacre said his paper had not suggested Ralph Miliband was evil, "only that the political beliefs he espoused had resulted in evil".
"As for the headline 'the man who hated Britain', our point was simply this: Ralph Miliband was, as a Marxist, committed to smashing the institutions that make Britain distinctively British - and, with them, the liberties and democracy those institutions have fostered."

www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/why-we-should-be-scared-of-marine-le-pens-front-national-a6765751.html

The conclusion in the above article in the Independent was:

"Papa Le Pen comes from a French ultra-right tradition which existed long before Nazism and fascism; he is an anti-Semitic social conservative and an anti-government populist.

"His daughter is both a “nationalist” (anti-European, anti-immigrant) and de facto a “socialist” (trade barriers and subsidies for industry; a higher minimum age; and a reduction of the retirement age to 60). She is also, as a double divorcee, socially liberal. She supports abortion and some gay rights. Many of the ambitious young men who surround her are openly homosexual.

"On one level, this can be dismissed as a ragbag of policies and attitudes designed to appeal to every grievance and frustration in a country which has been spinning its wheels for four decades. Ms Le Pen has skilfully exploited the anger of a blue-collar and provincial middle-class electorate which berates politicians and demands “change” but refuses most specific changes. On the other hand, “nationalism” and “socialism” combined have a dark history, whatever Ms Le Pen may say. To that extent, the “Mariniste” FN is more authentically fascist – even if “fascist lite” – than her father’s party was."

I don't really care whether Le Pen's political positioning is described as fascism, nationalism, socialism or a mixture of all. My feeling is that anybody who exploits and exacerbates feelings of fear, dislike and distrust between groups of people is someone to be worried about.

Mair I see that you accuse whitewave of giving a prejudiced opinion in her critique of le Pen. In accepting the description of Ralph Miliband as "a Brit hating Marxist" (courtesy of the Daily Mail) it appears that you are not exactly neutral in your opinions either. The Telegraph's obituary to him seems not to support that description of him:

"Miliband never joined the Communist Party, unlike so many of his friends, repudiating Stalinism and always keeping his distance from sectarian groups"

- and indeed speaks of him as an important and highly respected political academic.

What is a Bremoaner?

Surely you can work this out?

I actually believe that she has her fathers views but it simply more hungry for power than her father

Well of course you do WW. I would hardly expect someone of your strong convictions to be open minded about her.*

Much the same suspicion could be applied to Ed Milliband, which goes some way to explaining his electoral failure

I actually believe that she has her fathers views but it simply more hungry for power than her father. She has cleaned up her act and is attempting to clean it up further before before the may election. However I am hoping fervently that it will do her no good.

What is a Bremoaner?

So absolutely no evidence she is a 'closet fascist'.
Thought not.

It seems there are plenty of Bremoaners who believe in an "authoritarian state" and that MPs should ignore the refernum.

Marine Le Pen expelled her father from the Front National. On the face of it, she disagrees with her father about many issues. She's also more intelligent than either Trump or Farage and has clearly thought through a number of policies. Unlike either Trump or Farage, she has been a serious politician for a number of years, so it's possible to read what she has stated and done in the past.

Le Pen Senior was a traditional (for France) anti-Semitic, racist, misogynistic, homophobic right-winger. Marine Le Pen doesn't hold her father's views, although many in the Front National still do. She has formulated policies which combine nationalism and socialism (sound familiar?). She believes in an authoritarian state, while offering sops to the disenchanted. She has stated that she would not seek to take France out of the EU. She is an intelligent woman and has certainly created a 'brand' which might very well appeal to the majority of French. Who knows what her real ambitions are? Certainly, she has changed her tune from her earlier stance on a number of issues, possibly to win votes by making FN appear more palatable.

"daughter who is a closet Facist"

Any evidence for that? Or is it just your usual prjudices?

Do you follow exactly the politics of your parents?

Does the fact that Ralph Milliband was a Brit hating Marxist mean that Ed must be a 'closet Marxist'?

Can you not undrstand that Le Pen while agreeing with the general thrust of her fathers nationalism, has a more broad minded softer view, just as Milliband while agreeing with the thrust of his fathers international socialism has a more broad minded softer view?

...backs away like mad and falls into Trump's golden lift...

This could be made into a comic ballet!

1917 is probably going to turn out more interesting than 2016 - if that is possible.

Le Pen is hopeful, not sure that the FN will succeed but they are softening their stance in order to attract more voters. It is interesting to look at the way they have softened their product. Father was a Facist, daughter who is a closet Facist realises that they will not succeed so softened the message, and is now softening it even further. But they are still a threat to democracy in France, and I hope enough voters will agree.

I love the way she aligns herself with UKIP, and the way Farage backs away like mad. It's like a mad dance,

Anyway, it's January now, so not long to go before March, unless the court cases hold things up.

Yes, I did know that, but you know rules are just made by People... and can be changed.In this case, guaranteeing the rights of British in the EU countries and vice versa, because it affects lives so directly, could have been assured if BOTH parties wanted it so.

Sigh

That's because we haven't triggered A50 yet rose

Britain knows that nothing can be discussed until that is triggered - we made the rules!!!!

The EU could have agreed to guarantee the workers abroad ( Brits) and May would have done the same for EU workers here, but the EU wouldn't even discuss it.

Radio 4 news this morning says that May will set out broad plans by the end of this month.Everything is being held up by the law suits, as to being able to trigger article 50 by the end of March....who knows.

POGS,

'May gave the date, the end of March. It was her decision, so yes, SHE said it. SHE is the only one who can decide.
Do you agree with that?'

Read my flipping post I replied 'Yes'.

'SHE can change her mind if SHE wants to. Nobody else has a say in that.'

Yes they do, at the moment we are waiting for a judicial response to the court case. If the court case is found in favour of the government then I will agree with you, she could bring it forward if 'she' chooses.

You are still ignoring the fact she tried to get a consensus from other EU counterparts but they said 'Non'.' Nein' ' Bugger Offski'.

POGS, May gave the date, the end of March. It was her decision, so yes, SHE said it. SHE is the only one who can decide.
Do you agree with that? SHE can change her mind if SHE wants to. Nobody else has a say in that.
It doesn't matter what anyone else says about it. SHE has the authority and is using it. Try not to pretend otherwise.

durhamjen

Yes she did, once she was made Prime Minister.

Perhaps as a Corbyn devotee you would have agreed with invoking Article 50 immediately after the referendum. Mind you I think he has changed his mind hasn't he?

Now of course we are waiting for a judicial decision.

It still doesn't acknowledge the point that Theresa May had tried to get an agreement over the subject but was refused point blank though does it.

Never ending rounds of he said, she said, political spin and
inflexibility by those who hold the power. What's new.

As to us continueing to live in Germany I must say it is not top of the agenda at the moment. Occasionally there is a cartoon and as far as I know personally a few Brits including DD1, and one Scot have applied for German ciizenship.

Fr Merkel has nothing much too say about it, she assumes the Uk will send its lawyers and she will have hers. It is not Fr Merkel herself that decides anything, her government will decide for the best. I can't see anyone here sending a European worker home who came in good faith and was employed.
The trouble here is trying to find enough people to fill job
vacancies

This is worth reading.

theconversation.com/ivan-rogers-resignation-in-febrile-brexit-britain-it-seems-even-public-servants-are-fair-game-70840

Wasn't it Theresa May who gave the date for article 50?
Not out of her hands at all.

Apparently, whitewave, David Davis's minders won't let anyone near him unless they have something positive to say about Brexit.

I can't help but smile at the hypocrisy over the Ivan Rogers resignation to be honest.

Why hypocrisy? The ones who are 'defending him' , 'believe he is the best man for the job' are for the most part those who said when David Cameron came back from his negotiations with the EU prior to the referendum 'It was crap'. 'He came back with nothing'. ' Showed his weakness'. Who was by his side , was it not the same Ivan Rogers they now hail as the best negotiator we have?

He could well be the best thing since sliced bread but the dark art of political spin and bias is alive and kicking.

Well pogs of course our government is going to find it a real challenge, and we hope that they have a good strategy in place which we hope will be a well kept secret until they have to show their hand. However a plan must also be produced, and I would expect it be put to parliament, and this is what is a tad worrying, as I would expect something by next month as the following month it is intended to invoke A50. I think May is giving a speech soon so let's be optimistic.