An oath on British Values?

WW

I think posters are well aware of Article 50 and I only mentioned it to make a point re the 'debate' going on over 'Reciprocal Arrangements' between the other 27 countries and the UK.

As you say 'we knew nothing would take place until Article 50 is invoked'.

That's my point and I am confused as to why knowledgeable posters keep blaming Theresa May for something they know, or I thought they would, is out of her hands. One can only conclude it is the desire for some posters to try and 'have a go' at politicians they dislike, which would be fine if their logic was sound and could be proven.

Time will tell won't it.

And IDS. They are being too arrogant and ridiculous, we simply need all the help we can get hold of, as you can absolutely be sure that the EU is lining up its biggest guns.

Civil servants are there to advise their masters. That includes occasionally saying things that they don't want to hear. Anything less would be worthless. However, once the executive has decided on policy it is absolutely up to all civil servants at whatever level to carry these wishes out without question. Britain is served so well by its civil service, and to suggest otherwise is wrong, and like biting the hand that feeds you

You really are hoping for the worst, aren't you durhamjen? How unpleasant.

Farage wants rid of more experts. I can't wait for all those experts who wanted the UK to remain in the EU to follow Ivan Rogers if they can afford to, rather than stay and take the blame for Brexit.

pogs

With regard to article 50. Somewhere in the depths of the gransnet archives we covered exactly how this works, and we always knew the process, in fact the UK actually was the biggest influence in its structure.

We knew that nothing will take place until article 50 is invoked. All the negotiations will be carried out by the U.K. with EU represtatives, who will be instructed on how to proceed by agreements taken place exclusive of the UK and behind closed doors.

Unfortunately the EU holds the whip hand both over negotiations but also with those who are doing the negotiations. We have very few experts we can call on, in fact we've just got rid of one.

Of course I shall be watching the government closely and expect a good result that can take the majority of the country with them. As I have said previously the vote is far too close to ignore the wishes of those who wished to remain in the EU.

I am not an expert on the minutiae of the EU and who said what to whom..I only know what is in the various media outlets and those are usually biased anyway! There have been some huge benefits to being part of a European Union which I suspect many will not miss until they are gone! I hope that when negotiations begin in earnest that we will come out of it better able to support the vulnerable, maintain important shared research, protect the ordinary 'foreign national' families currently living in UK/EU so they are not disadvantaged, and still be able to feel that GB is a European nation and not another US state!

I know that I very much dislike the attitudes of those Brexiters who promote the Little Englander /xenophobic reasons and whose language implies a white British supremecy. That alone would make me want to Remain. I know that is not all leave voters but these fascists have the loud voices!

I certainly didn't let it all hang out at Diana's demise...

But if they won't, then article 50 needs to be triggered ( was going to be March) but all the lawsuits are holding things up.

There has been no mature talk at all within the EU, just a lot of posturing and spitefulness. They may have been reeling from the result at first, but what's the excuse now? We all know they are desperate to stop any other countries defecting, but in the end, we (and them )have to talk business.

WW you say

'Merkel couldn't decide on her own this has to be agreed with the whole of the EU - thus making for huge challenges'.

You are correct but sadly it is not only the position taken by Merkel is it!

What about Donald Tusk , he was representing the European Council of which he is President.

You and others are happy to blame Theresa May but fail miserably to accept the well trodden statement by the European Council/Commission/Parliament. ' There will be NO negotiations before Article 50 is triggered'.

So why is Theresa May being blamed?

They are ALL equally to blame because of their incapability to do as required to safeguard the welfare and employment of citizens throughout Europe and 'talk maturely'.

It also points to the

'

Not since Diana!! We let it all hang out at her demise.

The fact that 27 countries have to agree anything at all that needs agreeing tells you what a lumbering beast it is.
The fact that Luxembourg consistently blocked tax reforms is very suspect
www.theguardian.com/business/2017/jan/01/jean-claude-juncker-blocked-eu-curbs-on-tax-avoidance-cables-show

This charming man has a lot to answer for - in fact he is probably the reason some people voted Brexit.

Nor should one speak about money!! That is truly vulgar.

A stiff upper lip at all times in the face of adversity.

I thought a British value was to raise an eybrow to show distaste and never talk politics or religion at the dinner table

I do think it is arrogant to think there are some special 'values' that are particularly British and are not universally decent human values seen amongst citizens of many/most nations.

We may have some specific cultural habits and traditions but that is different!

Although ww Germany usually get their way if they want something ( within the EU)

The fact that 27 countries have to agree anything at all that needs agreeing tells you what a lumbering beast it is.

POGS

Excellent referenced post!

This further underlines how pathetic and appeasing May would appear if she was to unilaterally guarantee th future of EU immigrants.

In fact I am sick and tired of EU immigrants moaning about insecure they feel! They should be lobbying their own media, ringing their own radio phone ins and demanding that their politicians strike a deal with May to protect their interests!

I hope BRits in Europe are complaining just as much to their media over there about EU intransigence.

Merkel couldn't decide on her own this has to be agreed with the whole of the EU - thus making for huge challenges.

ana you are overthinking what I said. No of course I'm not it was just so interesting to compare the two. It was when Ferdinand and Isabella took over and the way people of other faiths were treated as compared to their life under the Moors. We has the Spanish Inquisition under the Spanish Catholic monarchs, but under the Moors all faiths were equally respected.

POGS good to remind everyone that T May did her best to agree reciprocal arrangements but Merkel turned it down!

Good post Eloethan

I'm not sure what "British values" are supposed to be. As the posts on Gransnet demonstrate, there isn't agreement on a lot of issues that could be described as value-based so it seems unrealistic to believe there is a set of values that is peculiar to Britain or any other country.

It seems to me that the only values it might be thought reasonable for every country to aspire to are very basic ones like not hurting other people by word or deed and doing our best to give help where it is needed. Neither this country nor any other seems to have achieved that goal.

I expect most people have friends and relatives who have emigrated to other countries and presumably there are certain "values" that they take with them but perhaps they are British "customs" and modes of behaviour rather than British "values". Although I suppose it could be said that the way a country is governed - its laws, etc. - may eventually affect what its citizens believe to be desirable or undesirable ways of behaving towards each other.

Visit to Spain this year and was impressed as how well the Muslim rulers ensured that all faiths were integrated and treated equally, including those immigrants from Asia- the gypsies. It all fell apart when the Christians took over. But that is really an aside.

As you say, whitewave, an aside - but when did this happen? Surely you're not blaming Christians (and their 'takeover') for all the problems between religious groups?

It is perhaps unfair to 'blame' Theresa May for the lack of cooperation on the subject of 'Reciprocal Arrangements'.

I think there is either a selective memory loss, or possibly no knowledge of the EU statements on the subject by Donald Tusk and Angela Merkel for example?

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/11/29/donald-tusk-accuses-british-voters-backed-brexit-creating-anxiety/

'Angela Merkel and Donald Tusk on Tuesday united to block Theresa May's attempt to fast-track a deal which would have created an amnesty for British ex-pats and EU migrants in the UK post-Brexit.

Mrs May had proposed that EU workers currently living in the UK be allowed to remain in exchange for an agreement which gives British expats in the European Union the same rights.

She had hoped to announce a deal within weeks but while more than 20 EU nations have signalled they are prepared to agree to a reciprocal arrangement, Mrs Merkel has rebuffed Mrs May's attempts to come to an agreement.

Her position was then backed by the president of the European Council, Mr Tusk, who on Tuesday said that Mrs May and British voters had created "anxiety and uncertainty" for migrants. He told Mrs May she must trigger Article 50 – the formal mechanism for leaving the European Union – immediately to dispel those fears.'.
--

www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/nov/29/donald-tusk-turns-on-tories-in-row-over-rights-of-eu-citizens-in-uk

'Tusk said the EU “stands ready” to negotiate Britain’s exit from the EU, including reciprocal rights, but could only do so ' once the process formally begins '. “Let me reiterate, however, that the decision about triggering article 50 belongs only to the UK, which we fully respect,” he said.'
-u

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-theresa-may-angela-merkel-eu-migrants-deal-a7445261.html

'But Ms May's attempt at a “reciprocity deal”, which would have guaranteed the existing rights of around 1.2 million British people on the continent and millions of EU migrants in the UK, was blocked by the German Chancellor.'.

It is a folly to keep banging on about what should / could happen , it is simply not the case any party can 'dictate' the terms no matter how unsavoury the subject matter.

The best we can hope for is the political elite stop being so b----y pathetic , work for a common good and shut up about the need for a Federal Europe and Free Movement of People, both of which are quickly turning into nothing more than jokes.

Good grief Mair I hope you do not represent British Values! Just popped on here and find some of this extremist rhetoric most un British!

Not all those who voted to leave the EU are xenophobes but obviously some are! Not all those that voted to remain are left wing but some are! It is not clear cut and both leave/remain camps are still divided on what they would prefer to happen once the process to extricate Britain from the EU gets going more fully.

As the child of an 'immigrant' man who married an English woman I still have two clear roots and whatever my passport says, wherever I live and whatever bigots spout I will enjoy, value and participate in the culture of two different places of which I will always be a part. One is not more important than the other: different but equal.