funding of Care for the elderly

I don't see why health tourism can't be stopped.
Plenty of other countries - including those in the EU - have systems to cope. You have to show entitlement or else the means to pay, or you don't get treatment.

My Swedish friend, who had been living outside Sweden for many years, had to pay for treatment while she was visiting relatives at home not long ago. She can't understand why we're so soft (stupid) here. Might add that she worked for the NHS for about 20 years until retiring recently.

People from other countries who know all too well that we are soft/stupid, are going to take advantage, and one can hardly blame them.

Don't know what the answer may be. I am carer for my DH and Asperger's Syndrome DS. MIL is 84 next month, in reasonable health, but I would have to split myself yet further if I had to take on responsibility for her,(I have my own serious health issues) but she dreads the thought of having to go into a home. She gets Pension Credit, but lives in her own house, which, however, would be hopelessly unsuitable for us as a family. Because I'm a pensioner, I don't even get a penny for saving the council thousands in caring costs each year and that really rankles. I don't think that's fair, nor do I feel that it's fair that we should never be able to expect to inherit MIL's estate and get out of the poverty trap.

How do they show entitlement, Witzend?

A passport and/or birth certificate won't do. The rules state that a person should be resident. How do you prove that? Many people live in households where others pay the utility bills and some people aren't registered to vote.

In any case, I don't carry around proof I'm on the electoral register on the off chance I might get run over.

In any case, the 'health tourism' issue is a red herring. I'm not denying it happens. The worst offenders are ex-pats. However, the worst problem with the NHS is underfunding of what people want.

Should you be paid to look after your own family? Do you see yourself as an employee?

My mother was self funded by us - £1,000 a week she hated the place one of these sit and nod off around the edge of a lounge homes. My father who was terminally ill was nursed by my Sister and myself at home. When Mums cash ran out the LA found her a place in a supported living complex, which she loved, the rent was about £300 a week and there were top up fees for washing, care visits etc. We did the bulk of the house work, cooking etc. Until her death. The complex no longer exists the LA who built it and filled it sold it on to a private company who converted the flats to executive housing and sold them for a profit having evicted the residents. We can't afford £1000 a week to sit in a lounge- our children can't pay their own living costs (on minimum wages or zero hour contracts) so certainly can't help and there are no supported living complexes left here. So our plan is to remove all identification and wander into Sainsburys so SS have to take us on, or commit a crime and be imprisoned.... should we need care. Why aren't insurance companies encouraged to sell care insurance to cover your old age costs whilst you are working - like they do with private pensions??

The paying for care issue is often badly advised, if people need nursing care then the NHS should be picking up the bill even if the person gets that care from a private home.My cousin whose partner got very early dementia was told he had to sell the house to pay for care by social services, which was totally wrong.

I prefer DIGNITAS to care for myself, so have a little fund for that and a pre paid click and collect funeral plan. Truth be told I shan't be sorry to leave this life and would not relish time spent in what we laughingly call 'care'.

Yes, a very complex subject and an emotional one. Over the years I have seen a number of changes to 'care'. When I was a teenager, my grandmother had a stroke and was partially paralysed. She was cared for in hospital for the rest of her days (nine years).

An uncle had a stroke ten years ago, also partially paralysed as a result, and he went to a nursing home which he had to fund from his private pensions and state pension. My MIL paid a top fee of something like £65 per month.

My (late) MIL was very ill towards the end of her life. She refused to go into a nursing home leaving me and my DH to cope with her deteriorating health. We have an adult disabled son, who also needs care. Those years were difficult and exhausting. We never expect to inherit from anyone - if it means a house has to be sold in return for a care package, then so be it. I suppose you could look on it as a form of saving for the future, if you like.

So, us. Hmm, I wonder what's in store for us. Our house will need to be a form of financial security for our son, who will never be completely independent. What we are doing is 'age proofing' our house now - making changes like turning the bathroom into a shower room, adjusting step heights at the entrance to our house etc. We have 'rainy day' savings to help fund any professional care we may need or to fund further adjustments to our home. This might seem rather pessimistic, but having witnessed the current form of care, it scares me. I'm in my 50's and 'old age' seems a long way off yet, but we believe in planning for the future while we are still in the best of health and able to do so. We may have to make adjustments on the way, but we are open minded.

After children have paid off student loans, (and/or paid toward their own children at university), raised said children, saved for their pension, paid their mortgage, How are they supposed to pay for care for their elderly parents?

Blood out of a stone spings to mind

My parents worked so hard all their lives and did without many things in order to save for their old age. It was fine for a while, then my dad died aged 80 and my mum s dementia got much worse. She had carers in her own home as long as possible then it became totally unsafe for her and she went into hospital until a care home was able to take her. She paid full whack for this, but I knew many of the other residents ( it's a very wee place she lived in and we knew most folks ) and I know for sure their fees were paid. My mum and dad both said before they died that they wished they had spent more on themselves while they were well enough to enjoy it, eg on a wee holiday every year. I didn't grudge my mum having to pay for care, it was her money and she was finally using it on herself, but by this time she wasn't aware enough of what was going on. There is a happy medium I think.

Daphne, that was what I asked my Swedish friend. They have to give their equivalent of a social security/NI number, which every legal resident is issued with, at birth if they are born there.
Since she'd been out of the country so long, her number was no longer valid.
She did not think it at all unfair that she had to pay (or her insurance did) - after all, she had paid no tax there for many years.

Being issued with any sort of number or documentation at birth doesn't make somebody eligible for NHS care. I'm not sure that the British government keeps tabs on where its citizens are living. I guess if somebody is living abroad and using a UK NI or NHS number to claim benefits or pensions abroad, then they do know, but I bet there are plenty of people who have moved abroad and just dropped out of the system. My ex-MIL was one of them and I know somebody else who lives abroad, but returns to the UK for medical treatment. Nobody can come up with a cost for 'health tourism', because nobody knows. The figures bandied about are speculation.

In any case, the NHS rarely pays for residential care, so it's not really that relevant to this thread.

Ideally families would care for their own relatives and enable them to stay in their own homes as long as possible. Having said that, these days both partners tend to have to work to pay the bills etc so home care is less feasible. Families are also much more spread out - I live in Essex but my parents were still in Sheffield, not exactly a distance I could just pop in. And, let's admit it, not all parents and kids get on well enough for the kids to want to care for their aged parents.
The answer (if there is one) is complicated but a good start would be to put up taxes so that government and local authorities could provide better social care. Surely a Council could run a care home just as well as a private company and would not be required to make such a big profit from doing so.
I Googled care homes locally. One headline said "from £750 a week" - that's £39000 a year and that's the bottom end! You could pay someone for 24 hr care at home for much less than that and know that the person being cared for was secure in their own surroundings.
Maybe we need more retirement communities like they do in the US. I would like to feel secure and that someone was on hand in case I needed help, but not in a care home where, according to the accounts of friends with relatives in one, everything from getting up to when and what you eat is regulated to fit the home's timetable.

My parents scrimped and struggled to buy their own home, too, and the house my mother was living in at the time had to be sold to pay her care home fees. By then her dementia meant she was no longer aware of the cost of anything so didn't care, and in any case she no longer needed the house to live in. But she would have been utterly appalled if she'd ever known how much of the money she had intended for her children went on care home fees. There is the odd blessing to dementia, and to me it was certainly a blessing that she was never aware of this.

My siblings and I did not begrudge the money for her care. On the contrary, we were profoundly grateful that we were never dependent on the tender mercies of social services, and could choose both the time and the place. I know of plenty of people who have not been so lucky, who have been driven nearly to despair with stress and exhaustion, only to have a social worker say, 'Well, we can't put her in a home if she doesn't want to go.'
Who on earth ever does?

As Witzend wrote earlier, in France the family has to pay for the cost of care for their parent, unless they're really poor (and there are plenty of those too.) I've heard of 2 cases where it's a british family who have been followed up in the UK and the money demanded. They can get a warrant to enter your bank account here, no messing.
As a result it's very common for the elderly person to move in with the family, to save the money. Often it's an extended family so the caring is shared - which unfortunately is much rarer in the UK now.
I hope and pray that when one of us needs care we'll be able to stay at home with support. However kind the staff, to me, care homes are institutions.

Me! I don't want to be stuck in my own house. I want and will want company and stimulation. I've seen care homes that I'd definitely want to live in.

That was in response to Witzend

I agree, Jane10. It could be a very lonely end of life!

You are only asked to contribute if you can afford it. People don't want to look after their relatives any more, but they don't want to give any money to the people who will? (And it's a tough job) Same with childcare....parents are happy to offload the (huge) responsibility to other people, but only willing to pay Minimum Wage. And still they moan about the costs!

Instead of fretting about how much inheritance you'll have left, how about a bit more consideration for those family members who have to be looked after ? Most of the people I know who complain about their parents etc paying for care are quite comfortably off really....just not willing to make sacrifices....personal or financial. And of course, very few are willing to pay more taxes to improve state provision. What a selfish nation we've become, and what a strange set of priorities we have.

Health tourism is still going on, look at the woman who came and had 6 babies at our expense, she went back home when everyone was well, never paying a penny. We should look after our own old people here. Families see the old as a burden most of the time, not always, I know several people who adore their parents and put them first.
What I feel is wrong, you can have two people on the same money and the same outgoing abd one will be careful and save for the future, the other spend over and above what is coming in. In the end the one that's spent the lot comes off best. Jayne says that Local Authority homes are better monitored, if that is the case when you pay for your own care you are losing out twice.

Funny our old people who need aid and care bottom of the list, overseas aid increased every year. Fat cat charity bosses getting rich distributing overseas aid, we need help we have to go begging for it.

Why are people making money out of the old and ill. Everything has to make large amounts of profit. Governments outsource everything. It should be non profit making. So should our utilities. Making it cheaper.

I thought children only had to pay for care if they had inherted money or a home in the past 7 years from those same parents.

Just briefly back to the "health tourism" issue - I believe if you are abroad & need anything other than emergency care you are asked for either credit card details or health insurance details before treatment.

As far as care for the elderly goes, 4 years ago my DH was in Hospital & had been diagnosed with Terminal Cancer, he needed to be moved, I was asked about him coming home, I explained that my elderly Mother was coming to stay for Christmas & I would be unable to cope as her health was not good. A place was found for him in a very good local Nursing Home funded by NHS, funding was due to be reviewed a month after he died - I often wonder what would have happened, my home could not be sold & we had no savings.

My DM is nearly 88 & still in reasonable health for her age, she lives 300 miles from myself & my DD, neither of us has room to have her to live with us - only option will be a Care Home but there the problems start as we would want her close to us - neither of us could travel frequently to visit. Her home is shared between DM, myself & DD (when my Step-Father died almost 18 years ago he left his half of property to myself & DD; DM owns other half share - can't sell half a house!!!!. I'm sure DM's wish is to stay in her own home but she lives in a remote area & care provision is poor (distances involved not quality of care but availability)

Legs, if your DM did ever need a care home, there's no reason why the house could not be sold and her share of the proceeds used to pay the fees.

If she would be self funded you could choose the area. My self funded mother moved 60 miles to a care home a 5 minute drive from my house.