RIP Jill Saward

momb said:

My husband is a retired C of E clergyman

I think your post of 16.46 yesterday is very unfair and judgemental, Mair. I did not know the family personally but I haven't made sweeping verging on libellous accusations.

I am not a Christian so am not under the same obligation to 'forgive' or be 'non judgemental' mum, however as you don't hesitate to be judgemental about me, the old Christian adage of "plank in eye" springs to mind!

I think it's insulting to say that she has made a career out of seeking revenge.

Not necessarily an insult ( making a career) more a way of saying that she did not give up but carried on for years making sure that the men were brought to justice for the killing of her son.No doubt it was that effort that kept the family going ( rather than forgiving).

Very well put Rosearered.
Justice/revenge two sides of the same coin, wanting to see the perps punished not forgiven.
I dont think for one minute Doreen forgave her sons murderers and frankly I dont see why anyone should, nor do I laud them for doing so.

I think your post of 16.46 yesterday is very unfair and judgemental, Mair. I did not know the family personally but I haven't made sweeping verging on libellous accusations.

Eloethan- Doreen Lawrence devoted her time and energy to uncovering the truth about her son's death and making the streets safer for other young people. The mothers of Letisha Shakespeare and Charlene Ellis, innocent victims of gun crime in Birmingham, have also striven to improve the lives of young people in their area.
For me these are examples of strong women whose efforts and achievements are their tributes to their lost children, a diverting of their grief and shock into a force for good.
Jill Seward was brave and by speaking out made it easier for other women to do the same.

I find your comments about Michael Seward very unfair and objectionable Mair unless you know him personally. Jill Saward chose to forgive. She was an amazing lady.

You do know them personally do you?
If not then your judgements about him are no less based on superficiality than mine.
I have a right to a view as much as you.

My husband is a retired C of E clergyman

The mistake we often make is thinking that we know all the facts and emotions of cases in the public eye.

Oh the Church is quite capable of leaning on the clergy (we have friends in the Church and believe me it can be Machiavellian at times.) Not saying it definitely did of course.
We don't know how Jill Saward felt privately at the time.Poor woman.

Of course the Church won't of 'leaned on him'. Forgiveness is a vital part of the Christian faith. I don't suppose for one minute he did it lightly or said it lightly. Probably his response helped Jill to live the brave, courageous , forgiving life that she lived with has been a beacon for many.

Not necessarily an insult ( making a career) more a way of saying that she did not give up but carried on for years making sure that the men were brought to justice for the killing of her son.No doubt it was that effort that kept the family going ( rather than forgiving). With the Saward family and what happened, I do remember being shocked at the time, not just at the crime, but at the fact that Rev Saward said very soon after it that he 'forgave' the men. Had my Father said that publicly I think I would have never spoken to him again. Of course he was a vicar, but had no need so soon after the event to have said it ( we don't know if he meant it, or also if the Church 'leaned on him' either.)

I don't think Doreen Lawrence sought revenge - she sought justice. This wasn't just a case of finding the perpetrators of the attack on her son. It was about uncovering the racism and corruption present in the police force which prevented his attackers from being apprehended in the first place.

I think it's insulting to say that she has made a career out of seeking revenge.

I find your comments about Michael Seward very unfair and objectionable Mair unless you know him personally. Jill Saward chose to forgive. She was an amazing lady.

The man whom Jill Saward met was not one of those who raped her.

In 1998, she came face-to-face with a member of the gang who devastated her life, but did not rape her, and told him: "You don't need to say sorry."
But she also spoke about forgiveness and said in a BBC interview: "I believe forgiveness gives you freedom. Freedom to move on without being held back by the past."

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-38516389

I think you must have worded this wrongly, mair when you say Doreen Lawrence has "made a career of seeking revenge*. Surely precisely the opposite is the case and I very much hope that is what you meant


www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-26952561

Perhaps "forgive" is the wrong word but I feel that spending a lifetime harbouring hatred and yearning for revenge would emotionally destroy people and thus damage their family and those close to them.

I take your point and think sometimes it does, for others seeking and maybe getting revenge is the solution. Consider Doreen Lawrence who has made a career of it. Others make a career of acting to change the law (Sarah Payne) so that while their actions maybe dont directly revenge the perp, they make life harder for future perps, then Katie Piper has battled for victims by creating publicity for the horror that is acid attack.

How much do u think we have moved on since then? Would those rapists get much longer sentences? Would a judge be able to get away with such remarks?

Yes I agree with your correction of what I said Mair. It's arrogant to assume that somebody should forgive.

I too would, I think, find it impossible to forgive in certain situations. Perhaps "forgive" is the wrong word but I feel that spending a lifetime harbouring hatred and yearning for revenge would emotionally destroy people and thus damage their family and those close to them.

Mair Unless you know this family personally, your remarks regarding this lady's father are merepresumption_ and based on your own prejudices. It seems to me that she was a most mature and capable young woman who knew what she wanted, and who had the courage to see it through.

As are yours about the woman and as were Gillybobs comments earlier - thats what we have all done on this thread if truth be known, none of us know what the woman, her father, or even the judge truly thought or felt.

However I take you to task for describing my view of the father as a 'prejudice' , some kind of fixed preconception. I have formed a judgement about him purely based on what we know he said at the time, which again is what we are all doing.

Granmary
On your last point, you may be right, yet given the risks of wrong accusations, and given therefor that she is adopting a very 'feminist' standpoint which disadvantages accused males, I think its reasonable to suppose that this resonates from anger she still feels about her rape, suggesting non forgiveness.

I think her main point was that the victim of rape should not feel ashamed of what has been done to her/him, shame, if at all, should be felt by the perpetrator of the crime. It is hard to remember that we have moved on from 30 years ago when the 'shame' of being a rape victim would put many off from pressing charges. I think it was also very brave of her to describe rape as it happened to her; it was not 'just' a case of unwanted forced sexual intercourse, it was oral rape, anal rape,and multiple times, all in front of her Father and then boyfriend. It is a mark of her courage and perhaps of facing up to her PTSD that she was thankfully able to marry and have three sons. For some women the damage caused mentally, and possibly physically ( she said during the ordeal that she was worried she would not be able to have children after what was done to her)is such that they never are able to move on. A brave woman, and remember she was so young when it happened, just 21, the same age as my own DD.

Mair I'm not sure there has to be a connection between forgiveness and taking a strong "name the accused" stance.

It's a minefield Eloethan.

gillybob and I were expressing the view that neither party should be named until a charge had been brought. Not that both parties should be named.

I too feel that it would be better if both parties could be named. But the problem with that is, for a variety of reasons, most rape cases are not proven. That being so, many more women (and men) would surely be reluctant to report a rape because of the fear of being forever branded a malicious liar.

Of course they shouldn't Mair we all have our own way of dealing with things.

As I said in a previous post I would find it extremely difficult to forgive anyone who hurt my child/grandchild.

No reason why you should want to or even try!