Humanitarian Crisis in UK

What if you don't need twenty minutes minimum? It'd be wasteful to extend appointments that only need five or ten minutes.

I think it is the whole wrap-round process DD. You get 20 minutes minimum with the GP, you never wait for x-rays and blood tests which are at separate buildings in every town, you may wait a few weeks for the specialist consultants but not if it is urgent. You get moved from hospital to rehabilitation and the district nurses visit every day. And yes, you pay. Contributions are high for employers and businesses and apart from the poorest you pay top-up insurance (200€ a month for us). Life-threatening conditions are 100% funded. It is another bill like car insurance and house insurance, but we have never doubted value for money. The paperwork can be painful but not too bad when you are in the system.

That's my impression too, Mamie. I've taken many school groups on exchanges and trips to France, so have had my fair share of visits to walk-in medical services for broken/sprained limbs and serious cuts and grazes, etc. (I've forgotten what they're called.) I really think the NHS would benefit from having more minor injury units to take some of the pressure off A & E. Another difference seems to be that people make more use of pharmacists, who are allowed to sell drugs only available on prescription in the UK, although I believe this contributed to overuse.

My big complaint about France is the amount of paperwork which seems to be involved in claiming back costs - certainly for foreigners.

However, the bottom line is that the French pay more!

Yes DD I would say that it is much better here in France and we are happy to pay the additionsl costs. Hardly any waiting times, much longer appointments, spotless hospitals (in our experience) and very good aftercare. There ar overspends but those have been reduced by this government. There used to ba lot of over-prescription, but that has been cut and there has been a big campaign to move to cheaper generic drugs. We have had routine and urgent care over eleven years and I can't fault it. Even the hospital food was good!

That's good to know Petra

MaisieD ^ brought the country to its knees^
I think you'll find that Mark Carney would disagree with you. Yesterday he was before the select committee and hinted that his economic forecast for the U.K. would be upgraded again after a run of strong figures.

And pensioners continue to pay for healthcare, which they don't in the UK.

I wouldn't have any objection to the NHS being funded in the same way as France or Germany. It's essentially the same as a hypothecated NHS tax and ensures that healthcare tax is spent on healthcare, but both France and Germany pay more. The question is whether it's worth it.

I agree that the method of funding is different, but in total France spends much more per head and as a percentage of GDP on healthcare. So is it much better (in which case the NHS needs to spend more to bring itself up to the same standard) or is it more inefficient (in which case the method of funding could be a factor)?

Comparing the UK and France, the main difference is method of funding. The NHS is funded by taxation, so for most things is free.
France is funded by various insurance schemes, either from the various occupational 'caisses' or from personal payments. Except for those who are really poor.

So-called austerity is at the root of the current NHS problems. When Osborne sent his departments away to come up with plans for cuts, each department came up with its own plans. Local government was particularly hard hit and councils were forbidden from raising council tax for political reasons.

At the same time, some NHS responsibilities were transferred to local authorities without extra cash. Inevitably, local authorities had to make severe cuts and these included public health and social care. When the Cabinet sat down to discuss these cuts, the Health Secretary should have realised that the cuts would impact on the NHS and protested. Maybe he did, but was shouted down.

There is written evidence that some former and current ministers (Hunt, Gove, etc) want to decrease the role of the state in public services, so it's probable they knew what they were doing, either for personal and/or ideological gain - either that, or they're incompetent.

No, I don't think it does. France lurches from left to right, but has a very vocal public. Germany has had centrist coalitions since the end of WW2. The CDU/CSU has been the most powerful political party and is essentially conservative, but in a different way from our Conservatives, but it has had to listen to Social Democrats.

Interesting question though.

David Cameron promised that the NHS was safe in the hands of the Conservatives. That's what people believed when they voted Tory at the last two elections.

(That, and all the guff about the need for austerity which has brought the country to its knees and led to the silliest decision ever..)

If statistics are to be trusted (i.e hospital admissions figures for previous years) we have not yet seen the worst. Admissions peak in about February. Just pray that you don't get ill enough to need hospitalisation in February.

Hard to say thatbags because each Tory government, like each Labour government will be different.Tony Blair's Labour was different to one ( should it ever happen, unlikely I know) to one under Corbyn. Etc.No government is exactly like the previous one.I think people were more concerned about the economy at the time, but of course the economy was and is central to the running of the NHS.

Pondering... does this mean the European countries whose hospitals are supposedly not so overstretched have has much more left-wing governments than Britain? And if so, why?

Thanks for the info, mamie. It does look as if we need to fund more rehabilitation centres and also care homes.

My brother spent some months in a rehabilitation centre in Oxford after a horrendous accident and much surgery and care in ICU. So we can do it if the will is there.

I agree with the comment that it's up to the government of the day how much is spent on public services. But it's up to us as voters to choose the government. I presume people vote for a Tory government because they believe, amongst other things, that public spending needs to be cut. Isn't reducing taxation and oublis spending a basic tenet of British Conservatism (note the capital C)? I've always thought it was.

As a nation, we've voted in a Conservative government so we can hardly be surprised that that's what we're getting.

I think the vote for a Conservative government in 2015 is much more complex than what I've said above, but all that is a factor, along with not very attractive alternatives. Sad though it is to have to admit it, Labour really needs to up its game to have any chance of electoral success in the foreseeable future.

I guess I'm saying, what do people expect from a Tory government? It does rather look as if what we should expect is exactly what we're getting.

rose it wasn't me saying it is being run into the ground it was a Tory doctor, no good shooting the messenger the message remains and is out there for public consumption.

And it is totally immaterial the language used by the RC the point is there is a human crises as the two doctors on Newsnight said. It is a sideline to moan about the wording used, it is the problem that needs addressing, and I argue that May is failing to do so, particularly when she talks about a small level if incidents!!!! What planet is she on?

Where there's a will there's a way....about the NHS becoming a X Party responsibility.
A committee from all Parties.

I dis say that I think more taxes will have to be paid (so that more money can go into the NHS) so yes, of course it needs more.I can also see that the present government is reluctant to tax more given the economic climate.
It's alright saying it's up to the government to decide how much it wants to spend.....it's our money, the government doesn't have any, and it's a balancing act how public spending goes to cover everything.Besides, Stevens did advise how much money the NHS needed for this year.There are some arguments about this at the moment.
Things will have to change radically one way or the other, but this notion that somehow a mean government is refusing to pay up whilst sitting on a vast heap of gold like a dragon is well, yes FGS actually.
The NHS should never have been a political football.

I think the point is often underemphasised that the cuts in funding to other services are adding to the problems. In my response to Bags at 8.40 I pointed out that France still has a network of rehabilitation centres and convalescent homes as well as district nurses and home helps. That makes a huge difference.

The NHS can never be apolitical, because the allocation of resources is involved, which is a political issue and always will be. Deciding how much is spent on what is a role of government.

The evidence would suggest otherwise, roses. People can see very well what's happening (well, hopefully most can) - the NHS is underfunded compared with other major European countries and the US, or are you suggesting that these other countries are even more wasteful, which is why they need the extra money?

As Simon Stevens said yesterday, it's up to the government how much it wants to spend, but the public needs to accept that services will need to be cut, if it doesn't want to pay more. The reality is that expensive drugs and procedures for those not expected to live long might need to be cut or very premature babies won't be kept alive. I don't think anybody wants to see that, so we need to pay for them.

FGS!

I think it was Anya who said the NHS should be a X party responsibility as it is so important, and she is right, then everybody would stop scoring political points off each other and get on with doing things properly.You can see from this thread alone all the
'Nah nah nah,evil Tories ' etc. And that's just a forum.

FGS ! The NHS is not being run into the ground on purpose! Every year more is poured into it, but can people not see that more and more people are using it's services,until it bursts at the seams in many areas.