Wheelchairs versus buggies court ruling

There are only 14 months between my two children, so I have every sympathy for mothers of twins (and god forbid, triplets!) and I struggled to hold onto a baby, a toddler and to fold up the pushchair.

It was normally a kind older person who took pity on me and helped us onto the bus. Other passengers should be prepared to help out.

It's a difficult one what about people with twins or if there were two prams already on I don't think driver should be responsible . If I had got on bus with a buggy and paid full fare I would not be happy to be asked to get off if I couldn't fold buggy some buses around here are hrly

I feel sorry for the bus drivers, as they are in an awkward spot now. When my kids were small and I had to use buses I always had to fold up pushchair and hold baby/toddler, along with my three other little ones, it was a real struggle. These days the buggies are huge and some seem difficult to collapse so I can see the problems Mum's have, but they should give up the space if a wheelchair needs it.

Should read Not taking sides

I have every sympathy with both wheelchair and pushchair users but would ask everyone to remember the struggle and pain a disabled person may face getting ready to even sit in their wheelchair. Getting washed and dressed is usually a mammoth task before they can even contemplate getting into their chair and leaving home. The day that you see them trying to get on a bus may be the only day that week/month that they have been able/well/pain free enough to get out. To then face the rejection of not be being able to board a bus would be a huge dent to their well being and self esteem. I am taking sides just asking everyone to think about others and above all be kind and respectful.

DD had one of those enormous pushchairs for DGS but she also had a lightweight folding one for using on public transport or at markets, fairs etc.
I wish some people pushing the big puschairs would just look where they are going, I use a cane and have had to step with some difficulty into the road when they do not give way.

People HAVE the choice to be a parent or not to be a parent
Medical science has given them this choice.

Disabled people are disabled and not from choice and if the child is disabled he/she too should have priority.

Unfortunately it is not just on public transport you find this 'I am a mother with a baby/small child attitude'.

I am with the disabled passenger on this. It has always been possible to take a child and buggy on a bus, although it was inconvenient in the past having to fold it up and disturb a sleeping child. The disabled fought long and hard and against prejudices to establish the right to this space. The bus driver should have to point out to a buggy user as they board that they can only occupy it if it is not required by a disabled passenger. People with children usually ask if there is space for them IMO. As several other posters have pointed out, it all comes down to considering the greater needs of the other person before your own.

More space with folding seats is the answer. It also depends as well where the upright posts are in a bus for the wheelchair/pushchair users to manoeuvre round. As to buggies being 'heavy' the same can be said for wheelchairs - you can get fold up ones and some users are able to walk short distances and just need the wheels for longer ones. Reasonable behaviour on both sides is needed.

dot upthread has a point, I think. Disabled spaces are empty most of the time, as are disabled toilets, and maybe even disabled car parking spaces. It seems daft to me to provide spaces which are unused most of the time and inaccessible to others during that time.

So what's the answer? I'd like to see better-adapted buses with flexible seating space. I don't think more legislation's the answer.

It should be simple: a disabled space is for the disabled. No one else has any right to use it when a disabled person needs it. Why should anyone think they have any right to occupy it? This is so reminiscent of drivers who park in disabled spaces with no thought but for their selfish selves.

Surely this is the problem there is going to be so many ifs and buts.

The only real problem is if the child in the buggy is disabled in which case it may not be possible for the mother to hold them easily.

I had a red and white stripe McLaren buggy so easy to use and take everywhere, bought something that looked similar when I looked after small grandson but not as good bring them back. What are the bus Drivers supposed to do if mother refuses to move surely we are no further forward or will the mums get taken to Court, I can just see the headlines.

I think the judgement was right although I have great sympathy with women who have to manage buggies, babies, toddlers and shopping. Hopefully, they will gain assistance from other passengers but I don't suppose they can count on that these days.

Brilliant idea Nanasam suggest this to your MP.

Gettingonabit surely it only applies if a disabled person in a wheelchair gets on to the bus. I would imaging babies in buggies would be allowed to use the space if there were no disabled passengers.

What about mothers with twins? Do you remember how difficult it was folding a buggy whilst holding a small child at the roadside? Plus you ALWAYS had a bag whether or not you had been shopping. It was a nightmare but London Transport conductors were great - I also knew a driver who was on my home run some days - he was in the year below me at school - if he saw me he shouted out of the window,leaped out of the cab and did all the folding etc - then reversed the actions where I was getting off!
My DIL has twins. This causes a lot if problems - if you want a pushchair/pram of any sort your choice is limited. She decided to buy one where the babies were one behind the other as it was narrower and was far easier in shop doorways etc. We had the choice of TWO of this style - both were sturdy out of necessity. It would be impossible to dismantle this on a bus and lift it on let alone carry the babies/toddlers.
The buses need more space to accommodate both pushchairs and/ or wheelchairs. The ones in South Wales often have enough room for two or three pushchairs or wheelchairs to fit on depending on the sizes. They have fold down seats when not needed for the chairs. The bus stops have raised kerbs too so it is rare that the ramps need to be employed. I have seen people in wheelchairs holding onto buggies for the mothers and all sorts - people tend to be patient and assist each other - the young mothers are very adept at manoeuvring the pushchairs into awkward spaces.

My mums wheelchair folded up too DotMH1901 but unfortunately she could not stand up and get out of it and anyway she was a bit too big to sit on my dads knee. I have juggled babies, buggies and bags over the years and always managed. Can't see the problem in having a sign that reads ONLY FOLDING PUSHCHAIRS ALLOWED ON BOARD. Problem solved.

I have a solution - a wheelchair space with a lockable barrier. Then the driver can open it for a wheelchair user to access and refuse to do the same for a buggy. Job done!

I don't think modern buggies are difficult to collapse in general. I bought an all-terrain, 3-wheeler and that collapsed beautifully. No, it's all the huge bags containing an entire baby kit, bottles, biscuits, nappies, wipes, change of clothes, etc that are invariably slung over the handles that make them unwieldy.

IMO the allocated Wheelchair space should have a barred access to be opened by the Driver when required so these mothers who can't read or are just selfish can't use them!

I think, if anything, this case has highlighted the need for clarity. I'd like to see conductors back too, but it isn't going to happen. I like the idea of having some sort of electronic system whereby a potential passenger can be advised in advance of the type of seats that are available on a bus in advance of that bus arriving. Or a system where a person can, say, text the depot to find out.

And, although the scenarios I suggested somewhere upthread are indeed somewhat unrealistic it is a situation like these which sparked off the wheelchair user's successful case in the first place.

And as to drivers taking responsibility for breaches of the wheelchair space code - no, just no. They're not paid to do that. The law needs to be properly in place, and enforceable. At the moment it's too much of a fudge.

Many buses are mostly empty during the day so why cannot the seats be adapted to provide more that fold up? Having travelled with grandkiddies in a buggy and small pram and struggled sometimes to get the darn things to fold (have you tried holding onto a baby, bag, handbag etc and trying to collapse a buggy??) I would not be at all in favour of people being made to get off a bus because of poor planning in the design. My daughter sometimes uses a wheelchair as she has mobility problems but her one does fold up (much more easily than a buggy does) so some (I know not all) wheelchair users could do the same. A bit of tolerance both ways is needed plus a concerted effort to get bus companies to adapt seats to free up more space.

Slightly off subject but why is modern baby equipment so complicated. I had a maclaren too which you could collapse using one foot. Had to ring my daughter to tell me how to get my grandson out of his buggy. Then on another occasion it took me 10 mins to do up his car seat. And they have so much paraphernalia now. How did we ever manage?