UK govt. - effective opposition?

I would apply your criticisms of Brown to May, but she's still heading a party with a double digit lead in the polls.

Tony Blair took us into the Iraq war on the basis of a "dodgy dossier" and both Tory and Labour parties supported him. He made many other mistakes but that is the one which will always be remembered,

The main problem with TB was his craving for the approval of those bigger than him, like Bush, and other movers and shakers, whether the leaders of big business or media and show business celebs. His capacity for self-delusion also proved to be very dangerous for this country, or put it this way he was as mad as a box of frogs.

Brown was not much better. He meant well (such a damning comment) but he could never see the masses as other than the proletariat or some other such term. He could never see them as individuals, people with loves, hates, families, good points and bad. He completely lacked the common touch and just could not see what the problem was.

New Labour almost any other leaders than Blair and Brown would have succeeded.

I don't think Blair betrayed labour principles, he didn't cling to the past , every generation moves forward, the sixties were not the same as the thirties . If Blair hadn't taken the party to the centre he would not have won three elections, he would not have won one. Yes some things were not considered labour policies but we got the minimum wage , the human rights act, sure start, the good Friday agreement, devolution and much more. We cannot forget the Tories were against the minimum wage , are scrapping sure start and re writing the human rights act.

What comfort to the homeless to say after losing the next election, we couldn't help you but we stuck to our principles

^ I was disappointed at first with TB's apparent betrayal of Labour principles. I still don't like the man much. But now I think he had the right idea^

Quite. But there are still many in Labour who think ideology first, and everything else after that including power, and opposition to whoever is in power.

Thanks to all for the replies, and apologies for the confused introduction.
I started this because I'm genuinely concerned about the swing to the right in western countries (not just UK,) and the consequent fixation on materialism at the expense of those who will never be able to achieve those standards. Or don't value them highly (like me).
Like MOnica on the previous page, I was disappointed at first with TB's apparent betrayal of Labour principles. I still don't like the man much. But now I think he had the right idea. When he was elected in 1997 we were living near Newcastle, I asked a bus driver what he thought and he said, with a disgusted look "he's not Labour".
It seems now that whatever the Tories want to do they will get away with it , the way they have gained control of the media and through it, the population.
I wonder what the Supreme Court will decide tomorrow? I hope they're not in their pockets too.

I voted for Corbyn based on his speeches at miners rallies , realised to late it was just show.

I think Farron will increase the lib vote, but wish Clegg was still leader , I think there are lib supporters who would forgive him

Well, there you go! Owen Jones is followed and admired by many young(ish) people. He was keen on Corbyn at the beginning, because he thought Labour needed to become more radical, but even he doesn't support Corbyn.

Owen Jones said in an interview Corbyn's politics are of the eighties.

We all know what happened with labours eighties appeal to voters

I agree with you, varian, although the LDs local party has collapsed around here. That's a shame, because they use to be strong - at one time, they shared leadership of the local council with the Cons.

Tim Farron is working hard to increase support for the Liberal Democrats and judging by election results since he became party leader he is doing very well.

I don't think Farron is the man to take the Lib Dems into a strong position.Not sure that anyone could just at the moment, but not him.

Fully agree with ab as well.

Fully agree with your posts Monica
varian Lib Dem members may agree with Farron, but not all Lib Dem voters do.

I wouldn't say that the Guardian supports Corbyn. Some articles do, but even people like Owen Jones are definitely luke warm. I sense frustration that Corbyn's (metaphorical) punches aren't hitting the target.

Yes Maizie, but some thought he was moving to the left and there is the fact that any labour leader has to battle the Tory press.

I have heard the Guardie is going with Corbyn because of sales, it did support Clegg if you recall?

After the attacks on Kinnock Mandelson knew the problems with the press and acted, for this he is attacked by some so called labour supporters who would rather stay in oposition and remain impotent

I'm not too sure about Labour being too centrist. There have always been those within the Labour Party who would like it to be more radical.

However, the argument that there was little difference between Labour and the Conservatives (so you might as well vote for the 'real deal') mainly came from the right-wing press. There was also the added complication of UKIP, especially in 2015. I seem to remember that in 2013/4 there was real optimism that Labour would win the 2015 election, because people were so appalled by the effects of austerity.

Being a 'list addict', I sat down with a table of issues which mattered to me and there were definitely differences between the Labour and Conservative manifestos. Historically, I'm a LibDem voter and my vote doesn't matter anyway, so it was all an academic exercise. In the end, I voted for the party (Labour) which ticked the most boxes for me.

I'd like to know who the élite are too. It seems to refer to anybody working in public services to those invited to Davos...and everybody in between.

But, AB, in 2010 the electorate was very lukewarm about 'centrist' Labour and in 2015 even more so.

John Smith did it Maizie, Blair and Brown are given the credit and John is forgotten . He saw the different needs and knew the party had to do what it could to meet the needs . Blair did much good for those in poverty from the centre ground but the far left attack him and choose to ignore the minimum wage, sure start,bthr improvements in the NHS and in schools . Even if labour cannot win from the centre it will not lose the large number of seats which will fall with Corbyn as leader , it took fourteen years to climb back then , God knows if it ever can after Corbyn fights the next election.

I'd like someone to define this bl**dy word 'elite'. Everyone is throwing it around all over the place as an apparently derogatory term but who the hell is it referring to?

And also, that they themselves have become the new elite.

I think I also added later that I meant the labour party have become the new elite

AB it's all very well saying that Labour has to move to the centre but they have the dilemma that dd outlined in her original post. How do you reconcile the 'traditional', conservative (in its non political meaning) Labour voter with middleclass Labour voters who are seen as part of the 'elite' and who have ideas/ideals completely at odds with the the 'traditional' section?

I think that Labour is dead and we need a new Centrist party, or, to make a lot more of the Lib-Dems

We have had the referendum, the electorate has made its views clear

No it hasn't. There are almost as many views about what 'leave' means as there are people who voted to leave.

I cannot accept that the country can potentially be plunged into economic suicide on the basis of that appallingly badly thought out referendum. We need to see what the actual deal is (not Theresa May's wishlist) and decide whether it is a price worth paying for for whatever we thought we voted for.

There has been a huge mistake made. I don't mean the Leave vote, I mean that the whole process has been botched so badly that we need to do it properly. If, with the whole deal and its implications out in the open, in a properly run referendum, 'the people' still vote to Leave then so be it. I'll be much happier about accepting the result.

As to 'effective opposition' I don't think we've had one for the last 6 years. We certainly don't have one now.

I have said for ages labour has to move to the centre .

On Kinnock, he worked his socks off to get the party free from the far left and win back the voters after the 1983 collapse of the party. He did win back voters, just check where he had to start from and he had the militants to contend with. Corbyn wants a rerun of that 1983 election. He has said if labour loses the next two bi elections he is staying as leader, nothing can be done to get rid of him, momentum need him to carry their ambitions on .