Labour now

Trisher,i voted for Corbyn because I thought he was honest , had no thought for any friends to keep him in check, I wouldn't vote for a leader I thought needed to be kept in check.

So where we differ is you didn't have faith in Blair but voted for him

I had faith in Corbyn and voted for him.

Your lack of trust proved right

My trust proved wrong

Oooops, Gracesgran, if I offer vitriol to one man I suggest you read the UKIP thread, all I have said of Corbyn is true . I accept some cannot cope with truth

Gracesgran, calling me a hypocrite is not nasty and personal? Hey ho

Good posts, trisher, GracesGran and Badenkate. You've written all I want to write, so I'll potter off and do something else.

annie I was being dead serious. There is no way Jen is of the 'far left'. That's why I asked you for a definition. However, as you've declined to answer, I can only assume it's something you've picked up and don't know yourself.

PS. When I was in my late teens, I was in love with a real Trotskyist, who would have supported a real revolution and worked for the collapse of capitalism. The relationship lasted about five days, until I realised he was a tw*t. As far as I'm concerned, that's what being 'far left' is about, not caring about vulnerable and poorer people, which is what Jen does. I have never met anybody like that Trotskyist again.

I have been a labour supporter and voter all my life, and can never imagine voting for any other political party. I am an active member of our local labour branch and voted for Corbyn in the leadership contests. So that sets out very clearly where I stand.

I voted for Corbyn because he said all the things I believed - and still believe - about the labour party. However, I agree that he is not capable of the leadership that we need today - but I am unable to see where that is coming from. My feeling is that the labour party as it has been in the past is less and less relevant to people today. Listening to people and their concerns, it seems to me that people are much more self-centred and interested in their own concerns than ever before. I doubt that it would be possible these days to get support for ideas such as the NHS and social care services if they were newly introduced. The labour party, as I have always believed in and supported it,I feel is destined to be a pressure group but no longer a main political party.

If you think about the last 15 years, what we have had are centralist governments controlled by leaders who have stayed closest to the political centre. Blair first with labour, and then Cameron with the tories. Some differences in focus, but very similar. If 'labour' want to gain control again, then they have to chose a leader somewhere in this centralist ground. May, although she says all the correct words, is actually heading rightwards and, to my mind, is exhibiting strong echoes of Thatcher. Labour may well gain control if they get a different more acceptable leader, but I think they would find it difficult to change direction of the way that government is taking this country.

One last word about Blair. I know his name is a dirty word to many of you, and the Iraq war was a disaster for the whole world, but just imagine the state the NHS, social services and the railways would be in without the help his government gave.

Finished now. I'm sure I will get many attacks because of my views, but I have wanted to say this for some time. I am deeply depressed by what's going on in this country and the world, and I see nothing that will make the situation any better.

Jen doesn't seem far left to me - are you in to making (nasty) personal remarks again? She has some areas that she has strong views about but then don't we all. It is worth remembering the Eleanor Roosevelt quote and sticking to discussing ideas surely.

there will be no leadership contest because it's a waste of time I agree, but again not for the reasons that seem to cause you to offer vitriol against one man. There is no point in a leadership contest because there is no one showing leadership at the moment and nor is anyone else in the LP offering anything that people want to hear. There may be things going on that we don't know about but all I can see is a waste of valuable time when they could be working out how all the changes effect the people they (the LP) are supposed to be representing. No part of that party seems to be doing that at the moment and I am saying this as someone who is prepared to stretch my credulity to think they were. It is not just Corbyn who will loose support for the LP for years to come AB, it is those who can only attack him while offering nothing for those struggling to work with the world as it now is.

Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

OMG we're back to Reds under the Beds again!
Yes Corbyn's stance on Brexit was disillusioning and not just to younger voters Daphne some of us had hoped for a little more opposition.
Who knows what aims and policies Annie considers 'far left'. She has repeatedly been asked to say what policies she agrees and disagrees with and has never as far as I know responded with anything except denigration of Corbyn and Momentum.(if I am wrong please point me to the relevant post and I apologise)
POGS I don't know if I will support the Labour Party if it ditches Corbyn, it will depend on the policies it then espouses.
Anniebach I voted for Labour under Tony Blair because I trusted the older members of the party to keep him in check. He had a great deal of charisma, if some rather dodgy friends and advisers. I was wrong I fully admit it, but so were lots of others.

Daphne, if you want to learn more of the far left just read Jens posts, but I think you know very well what the aims of the far left are with your knowledge and interest in politics

Momentum is already beginning to fall apart. The newer, mainly younger supporters have become disillusioned with Corbyn's stance on Brexit. That's from the 'horse's mouth' by the way (not Googling).

As for the unions...Dave Prentis (of UNISON) has spoken out against Corbyn and McCluskey is rumoured not to be happy, but is engaged in his own leadership battle.

What exactly do you mean by 'far left'? What aims and policies do they have?

No, daphnedill, I have no need of files/notebooks as my memory seems to serve me adequately.

there will be no leadership contest because it's a waste of time. Corbyn is the cat with the cream, he knows he has it all stitched up, anyone stand against him and in come the British mafia, Momentum, Communist party, union leaders plus those who claim to have principles, and any oposition will be subjected to the most appalling assaults.
unheard of before Corbyn became leader,

the far left now have control of what was once a decent, respected political party.

Sorry, 00.12.01

Just the post of 12.01, POGS.

www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/feb/21/is-jeremy-corbyn-responsible-for-all-labour-troubles

The obvious thing there, Gracesgran, is for anyone who agrees with PR to vote for Libdems. Quite sensible, really. Greens also support PR, but would not get a look in. Both Copeland and Stoke Greens lost voter share.

durhamjen

Sorry? I have not a clue what you mean in your post to me at 00.19?

I am not talking about GN posters. Or are you going back several posts?

Due to the undemocratic system in the UK, my vote has never counted in any sort of UK election,

It's probably to early to talk about it but I do think there has to be an all opposition party agreement to go for PR or we are just going to have different groups feeling they are not listened to dd. The percentage voting is very worrying if you believe in democracy and this is the only thing I can see making any difference.

It works the other way round as well, POGS. Corbyn supporters get a lot of nastiness thrown at them, too. You must have noticed that, even on GN. This is tame compared to some of the rightwing media sites.
It's not a coincidence that only two of us are prepared to stick up for our principles.

durhamjen

" Are you suggesting there could be a worse Labour leader than Corbyn, POGS? That's why it's a copout. "

No I was not suggesting that I was making a perfectly reasonable comment.

However as you come to mention it yes I do think there could be a worse Leader than Corbyn, John McDonnell.

I would like to read his research as I'm afraid I am not convinced dd.

I appreciate that there is a correlation between group educational achievement and group voting but I don't think it shows causation, particularly not a single cause, even with the adjustments you suggest. Perhaps the actual research would give more detail but I feel you could find many correlations between those in a group reaching any chosen level of education and other correlates which may influence voting. It would be difficult to show, without qualitative analysis being carried out what the influences actually were and this sounds as if it was purely quantitative.

I am sure your DS's lecturer knows more about it than I do but I have always been a little loath to see education as an answer to the 'why' of this voting as it seemed too simplistic in comparison to the complexity of the times we are experiencing and the variety of influences on us.

Good to know research is going on though

"Have you noticed how all the people they suggest to succeed him are those who have only been MPs since 2015. It shows how poor the party hierarchy are that they cannot think of anyone who has been an MP for longer than that.

Every time anybody leaves his front bench, it's because they are finding out how many MPs will back them in a coup against Corbyn, according to the right wing media.

If he is so terrible, why can't they find someone who can stand against him?"

Answer

Yes , everybody cannot have failed to notice the Shadow Cabinet and those being mentioned as future Labour Leader are reasonably new to the role of MP, I would not say from 2015 but from the 2010 intake myself. The reason is the majority of older, more astute MP's have lost faith with Corbyn/McDonnell they cannot work alongside him. Every man and his dog knows that.

There you go with the right wing media bulls--t again. If MP's have/might try again to oust Corbyn it won't because they are weak and follow any right wing media lead, it will be because they cannot respect Corbyn's Leadership qualities and those of his 'inner circle' who have set against them.

Perhaps there will be another challenge to his Leadership. However the nastyness that any potential challenger would probably have to face is well known and who can blame them for not ruining their political career but their personal life also. It is one thing to get aggravation from the opposition parties but hells bells when it comes from your own side what does it tell the electorate.

I didn't say I was blaming you, roses. I said you'd be pleased. Are you saying you want a Labour government?

Are you suggesting there could be a worse Labour leader than Corbyn, POGS? That's why it's a copout.

Yes, daphne, I didn't think you were a dyed-in-the-wool Labour voter.

Have you noted that on my file Ana?

I think Corbyn is a rubbish leader. So what? My view is never going to translate into a result, but that doesn't stop me from having an opinion and desperately wanting a left of centre government.

No, I'm not a Labour voter. I have voted once for Labour (in the 2015 GE) in national elections, but that's it. Due to the undemocratic system in the UK, my vote has never counted in any sort of UK election, so the best I can do is to vote for the candidate whose views are closest to my own and gain some satisfaction from knowing that I was responsible for one vote when the totals are announced.

PS. The only time my vote has ever counted is in the elections for the European Parliament, where PR has resulted in a Labour MEP of the 7 elected for the East of England.

time for bed.