English Scots for YES

Wise, measured words as ever from Elegran but as this thread actually started as a discussion for English born/Scotland resident people I can think of few better placed to comment herein. No such thing as a genetic 'real' Scot' The key is where you think you belong, where you call home and what you reply if casually asked 'where do you come from?

I suspect that if asked Elegran would reply 'Edinburgh' - am I right?

Yes, but you and thatbags and a lot of people will be doing the actual voting, as it has been pointed out it is a matter of civic voting.All the EU citizens will be voting too, presumably they will vote against the UK.
It seems that as many non Scots will be voting as Scots ( slight exagggeration I know).

You're all right, it is only the Scottish government and the Westminster SMP's that make me and I suspect a lot of other people feel as my former post indicated, not the people of Scotland, not at all, and apologies to you. My DH is a Scot, and we've spent a lot of very happy times in Scotland where we unfailingly met nothing but friendship and kindness, and of course we'd be very sad to see you go! Perhaps I'm suffering from hurt feelings!!!!!

I agree, if we are talking about what we think personally but a certain amount of hostility is engendered ( within the rest of the UK and particularly England) by constantly seeing the SNP and N Sturgeon demanding this that and the other and talking of another referendum to hopefully part company from us for good.Since NS is in the position she is in, put there by the votes of the Scottish people, it seems to a lot that logically, how can the SNP lose again with all that support.
I have been trying to get my head around the whole conundrum, that there is so much support for the SNP ( who's whole point is to achieve independence) but that same support stops short of the main aim of the SNP.
I understand that not all posters want to get too embroiled in this debate though.As Jane has already said.

Thatbags and I are not native Scots. We were born English and have lived in both countries so we can hardly speak for "real" Scots.

I had posted before seeing your explanation of "us".

I have to assume that those telling the Scots to B off also mean the SNP and not the general population, but it is the general population who hear and read it. It doesn't exactly make them feel loved and wanted. It is more likely to send the undecided to join those voting for independence - we know when we are not welcome so we might as well leave!

There have been posts by Scots of various political opinions, both pro and anti independence, with reasoned and cogent arguments for and against, but what is seen by some is only the wish by one element to leave the United Kingdom - and for that they are prepared to be quite vicious about the Scots, saying "bugger off then, we don't like you anyway" and similar valedictory utterances.

If that were one of your family - not a patriarchal family, where what Father says is law and everyone bows to that, but a family who rub along together fine but one is minded to go and seek his fortune in a different way and is debating with himself whether to strike out into the big wild world or stay with the his peers and colleagues in the family business - would you encourage him to think of good points and bad and weigh it all up and then wish him well when he decides to either go or stay, or would you tell him while he is still considering the options to feck off then and good riddance to bad rubbish, and not expect any Christmas cards from you?

That is what I hear.

Elegran I did just explain my use of the word us and although I have never lived there, have been visiting on holidays going back 50 years.Never the same as living though, I know.
I was hoping that you and thatbags and one or two others would post comments.

As a Scot who very firmly wants to remain as part of the UK, I don't bother entering online discussions re the neverendum. Most of us don't. The 'cybernats' are such online bullies that we don't. No point. We just turn up and vote No which seems then to come as a complete surprise to the Nats who have been living in a bubble of their own nationalist effluvia. (Don't often get the chance to use that word)

But most of the people of Scotland actually like the people of England a lot! and judging by some of the comments on here and other platforms, there are people in England (etc) who don't like the Scots at all, or don't understand what the hell they are going on about!

As usual, it is those who have never lived in the other country who have the strongest opinions about the "others", and the most ignorance about them.

By us granny23 I did mean the Governments and not the people.

I don't think that enough Scottish GN'ers came onto this thread to give a more balanced feel, but maybe they thought it would get too contentious ( ahem!) if they did.

Still, I personally feel it would be a shame to end the historic link,but think that the liking has become too one sided ie. England, Wales, NI liking Scotland more than Scotland likes us, so maybe it is time to end it.The Scots ( or rather, people living in Scotland) will decide.Am sure we can all live happily whatever the outcome.

Am afraid it's true that there is a certain amount of feeling here that thinks just as niggly says, a kind of 'you need help packing?' ?

Let's hope they get their referendum asap, and GO! No more whining from Holyrood and best of all, no more SMPs!! Hooray!! Hopefully they'll be off and heading North the next day, the relief would be universal and one less thing to have to grit our teeth over.

The Scots are not a homogeneous mass and some of the people who live in Scotland do not even see themselves as Scots. I have tried to illustrate the variety of opinions by posting links to various sources because people come to the issue from different perspectives. For some it is all about the economics and how any change will affect their own pocket, for others it is a love of this not so wee Country, for many it is a dawning realisation that we could certainly do a better job of managing our own affairs than Westminster is doing. A 2nd referendum will not have the safe 'Vote No for the Status Quo' option. This time it will be a choice between a hard right Brexited Britain and a left of centre Scottish Government free to decide whether Scotland remains in/joins/leaves the EU.

I have noticed a sea change over the past couple of weeks from 'Oh No, not another referendum' to 'Who does Mrs May think she is telling us we can't have a referendum'. We currently have an advert, running regularly, which depicts the annoyance of people being refused entry or turned away while others walk freely in to events, shops, etc. eventually coming to the point that if you have not registered to vote you will be turned away from the Polling Station. Inadvertently, this ad chimes in with the current mood where if you are refused something it suddenly becomes more desirable (a technique I used successfully when the bairns were reluctant eaters .

Already, Mrs May is being conflated with Mrs Thatcher, who was/is the most hated politician in Scotland because of her bossy, head girl, 'Nanny knows best' manner and total disregard for the needs/wishes of the Northern Kingdom. The stage is set, the roles have been cast, who knows how the plot will develop?

I agree that if it's what the majority of Scots want Nfk then they should have it, the only thing is that they have just had it ( I know, circumstances have changed) but it was a bad time for many and they may need a bit more time before another one.Also, would they not want to know more about the trade deals we will be making during Brexit, before they finally decide?

I support Brexit and Scotland's right to choose to be European rather than British. But why wait until after negotiations have finished? If it's a case of where a Scot feels more at home rather than for mercenary economic advantage, the referendum could be held as soon as. Then everyone will know where they stand and Mrs May can get on with EU negotiations without the distractions of Ms Stugeons constant screams for attention.

From Granny23's link :

"I think anyone who supports Brexit or who is happy to go along with what the UK government is doing now has got some bloody nerve to be lecturing anyone else about what’s economically sensible. There may have been some justification back in 2014 for describing a Yes vote as “a leap in the dark”, but as far as I’m concerned, now that the rest of the UK has thrown itself off the Brexit cliff, it’s forfeited the right to use that argument against Scotland for a very long time to come."

I couldn't argue against any of that Pollaidh but in the end it will come down to recognising all the shared history we have together and voting for that and a better economy, or .....because the Nationalist movement means more to you anyway so you will go with it.There will be plenty of time to make up minds because it won't be happening for a few years by the sound of it.

Hi Granny23. Yes, it is indeed a global supply chain which relies on being able to cross borders without tariff or, in the cross - UK instance, currency exchange transactions. This level of ease would be greatly threatened in a situation where Scotland was a foreign trading nation, part of a different trading bloc, to the remainder of the UK and trading with a different currency - even if it is called the Pound. It simply doesn't make sense.
And, durhamjen, as someone once said, it's the economy, stupid. Without a thriving, viable economy anything else is just hyperbole. I wish the UK had remained within the EU. But given that it hasn't, I see no sense in Scotland cutting off its nose to spite its face and turning its back on its strongest ally and market. If there is to be another referendum, it makes no sense to vote against the last 300 years. It makes every sense to vote for the next 300 years and we must each determine in our own minds, having considered all the evidence, where the stronger future lies. I have no doubt that our greatest chance is that it lies within the UK. People who have given their lives and souls to "Scottish Independence" hold to it like a religion. But faith is not enough in today's world. You need reality.

Granny23's link said that it wasn't economic arguments that swayed the argument. It was how s/he would feel in a post-Brexit UK.
That's what I agreed with.

Pollaidh as with all statistics the devil is in the detail. See these disclaimers from the ScotGov web site:

How does ESS treat the situation where Scottish goods are initially exported to the rest of the UK, and subsequently re-exported?

The ESS estimates only capture the first point of export. This means if a good is exported to a company in the rest of the UK and that company then exports it somewhere else, ESS will only capture the export to the rest of the UK.

Direct sales from Scottish companies to international destinations are counted as international exports regardless of where they leave the UK.


What proportion of exports to the rest of the UK are then re-exported internationally?

While undoubtedly some exports to the rest of the UK will be re-exported, including as part of other products, it is not possible to say exactly what this proportion is. However over half of Scottish exports to the rest of the UK are services (such as financial services) and are unlikely to be re-exported abroad. Also, many of the goods exported to the rest of the UK are in sectors where re-exporting is unlikely (utilities, retail and wholesale).


Why do we end up with the “Rotterdam Effect” if the statistics are measuring the end destination?

Although it does not matter which port in the UK that Scottish goods leave from in counting export statistics, the port in Rotterdam acts as a major distribution hub as well as a port. This means that Rotterdam is often the destination of many goods exported from Scotland (and the rest of the UK) which are then subsequently re-exported to other destinations. This results in what is known as the “Rotterdam Effect” – where the amount of exports to the Netherlands is artificially inflated.


Do the statistics take account of supply chains or value added products?

For some companies operating in Scotland, their products are feeding into a global supply chain. For example, they may sell a good to a company in England who subsequently incorporate it into a product which is exported internationally. In such a situation, only the sale from the Scottish company to their customer in England would be counted as a Scottish export. It would be recorded as a Scottish export to the rest of the UK.

And don't even get me started on the currency issues!!!

Remaining in a "welcoming Europe" sounds extremely attractive durhamjen, but ignores the fact that, in 2015, Scottish trade with the rest of the UK was worth £49.8bn, whereas with the EU it was only £12.3bn. Europe may be where I would prefer to be also, but it is not a viable option to exchange one union for another in this case. Add to this the nightmare of existing between two separate trading regimes and the consequent impact on the border controls, and you begin to see how difficult this can become.