English Scots for YES

Someone pointed it out to me yesterday I think (this thread or another one??).

I mentioned Ruth Davidson but she would have to represent an English constituency then apparently.

Never another Scot as UK PM?
If Ruth Davidson chose to switch over and stand for an English constituency it would be eminently possible. ( Or may I laughingly suggest David Mundell).
I agree though that any mp representing a Scottish constituency couldn't be PM.

Thank you grannypiper

Yes - we need a dragon on the Union flag!!
(a Welsh one, not an import from elsewhere)

Mindsets are very difficult to shift, but for me we are a United Kingdom, each supporting the other in good times and bad. No one is better or worse, more important or less important than the other. Maybe the past was different but we can't alter that, so surely this is how we should be collectively perceived both by ourselves and others in a modern age. We are all different with different identities and separate flags, together with our collective flag of unity which we can and should feel proud of and which should be and hopefully are respected. Surely we should compliment each other not fight amongst ourselves in the 21st century bearing mind our shared history through the darkest of times along with the joyful.
annie, I'm not a fan of sport, or the Olympic games, but I think all our athletes were representing the UK as a whole, and as such the union flag was used for the presentation of medals, not anyone's individual flag. I could be wrong though.

Did Dennis say that too anniebach

I think the rest were all English

English identity has long been considered ( by the English) to be superior, an attitude seen as arrogant by the other members of the Union. I am not saying present day English people have this hangover from Empire, but maybe on an unconscious level it remains amongst some.

I can only look at that from the perspective of an English person but I have learnt about Scottish history.

However, I think we would have to differentiate between Union and Empire because the Scots have, for centuries, played a full and active part in British political life and were very actively involved in the British Empire.

To my mind, although I doubt any Scot will agree with me, in some ways devolution has diminished the Scottish political scene. As someone pointed out, even if we remain united, there will never be another Scottish Prime Minister of the UK therefore they will never again play a full role in the political life of the Union.

That's just my musings and I expect no-one will agree.

I watched .marigold Hotel and heard over and over - in England we- never in the UK

The very fact that SAAK says inadvertently that Scotland is part if England is a very big clue to the reasons that people in Scotland, Wales and Ireland get resentful.
I was trying to point that out last night!
But, as SAAK has said that she has a Scottish mother, etc, and hates the fact that she was born in England made me think she was being ironic.

I don't think it is the English who refer to the whole of the UK as much as people from overseas - Americans and Australians in particular always ask which part of England someone is from and seem bemused by the fact that Edinburgh or Cardiff might not be in England.

Well put elegran. I like your 'little woman' analogy.
Comments like saak's are extremely galling and are made worse when complaints about them are simply flicked away as trivial and unimportant.
Signifies a complete lack of respect. Contrary to slogans like Better Together etc, they indicate a couldn't care less attitude. One doesn't have to be a rampant nationalist to object to this.
I include Wales and NI in my comments as they are no more part of England than Scotland is.

Good post Elegran

The very fact that SAAK says inadvertently that Scotland is part if England is a very big clue to the reasons that people in Scotland, Wales and Ireland get resentful. Unconsciously, people conflate the UK with England. NO they are NOT a part of England, backwaters and dependencies of a massive colonial power! For hundreds of years they have been a part of a Union - a union just like a marriage, with equal partners contributing to the relationship and receiving fellowship and support, and reinforcing the strong image abroad of the partnership. Yet still in the unconscious mind they are seen as extras, as hangers-on, like the spendthrift "little woman" supported by the rich and powerful husband who supplies her with both necessities and luxuries, and minutely scrutinises the receipts from her allowance.
Could this attitude be a clue to what is at the root of a lot of unrest?

Brilliant post Grannypiper .

When I see the flag of St George it is the BNP which comes to mind not England , the Union Jack means England to me .

It is so wrong that at the Olympic Games Welsh athletes have to honour a flag of England, Scotland and NI, they are not allowed to honour the flag of their own country. How would England like that insult?

niggly sadly the flag of St George now has racist overtones having been hijacked by some far right racist group. It needs to be reclaimed.

But how?

What's to stop the English celebrating their own culture and history?

Hatred is a corrosive and while we hate each other for things that happened in the past about which we can do nothing, then all hope for building a better future is lost.

Thank you grannypiper, your post has really heartened me .
Other countries have had as bad if not worse histories than England with regard to its neighbours and foreign adventures, (subjugating other countries) all now in the past; Germany is a glaring example, yet no one hates modern day Germans for their parents awful past- quite right too. Spain equally, the pacifist Netherlands, France, the appalling Belgians the list is endless! Yet all these countries fly their flags with pride and feel proud of their nation, rightly so too as none of us can help the actions of our forebears or alter them. Yet we in England are somehow everything that's dreadful if we fly our flag, celebrate our country's culture and feel proud of our nation. Even the way we vote invokes sneers and cat calls if it's even remotely to do with, god forbid, a love of England!
The flag of St George will be flown in this house along with the Union Jack with pride.

Good point Annie. It needs a dragon!

The Union .jack means nothing to me, it represents three counties of the U.K. not four countries.

grannypiper Thank you soooo much for that wonderful post. Big big hugs.

GP the problem is that the cross of St George and English nationalism is thought by many to have been hijacked by racists of the old BNP type. I have to say I'm no nationalist myself and would like to se a few more union jacks about the place!

niggly I loved living in England and it infuriates me that is the English dare to fly their on flag they are seen as racist or bigoted. The other 3 nations in our union fly their flags with pride they celebrate their patron saints day and are proud of their lands. Only in England would a council insist on a home owner removing a national flag. Try that in Scotland, Wales or ulster
Stand up for yourself England,you are not being racist, bigoted or nasty because you celebrate your history or heritage. You allow every other culture to be celebrated in your land but shy away from celebrating your own as you want to be so inclusive and not upset any other colour or creed. It seems to me that the only unimportant people whose culture is not part of the multicultural hugfest in England are the English themselves. Stand up for yourselves please.
On our car there are 3 small stickers on the bumper, the ST Georges cross, the Union Flag and the Saltire.It is time England that you flew your flag with pride and gusto.

daphne thanks for the info re Richard Murphy. I do know of him but hadn't made the connection.

Well, I love England my family have fought and died for England and there is nowhere on earth I would rather live. If that makes me a 'little Englander, so be it. My Scottish DH loves these islands including England.

The reasons why it is seen as undesirable to be an English nationalist is historical. England being the larger, wealthier and dominant country means that the UK has never been an equal Union. The Scots, Welsh, Irish have been conquered nations and as such have had to fight more strongly to maintain their identity. English identity has long been considered ( by the English) to be superior, an attitude seen as arrogant by the other members of the Union. I am not saying present day English people have this hangover from Empire, but maybe on an unconscious level it remains amongst some.