English Scots for YES

I take your point varian but have to reiterate that at a local level I see none of the bitter divisiveness that others quote.
I think the EU referendum however brought out the worst in those who were looking for ways to justify their racism - a phenomenon far more widespread in England then in Scotland.
By the way, the term I used was self-determination.
I have to agree with paddyann that there has been a huge change in the Scottish persona over the last decade and that's about self-esteem and an urge to get rid of harsh Tory bullying.
JC and labour have been collateral damage.

Couldn't agree more varian. The unpleasant nature of the divisiveness that the referendum has fostered is deeply regrettable. Both sides of the independence and brexit referenda will never be reconciled in our lifetimes unfortunately. Its understandable that the silent majority just remains silent and produces unexpected results.

Thank you, mcem. I too have respect for reasoned arguments and I know very well that there are well educated people who support the SNP (even some in my own family).

However I still believe that the 2014 referendum caused bitter divisions, not just in Scotland, but in the whole of the UK.

I read The Herald and The Scotsman, regarded as serious newspapers. There is constant reference to the SNP's core aim, which you describe as "indepedence" but others call "seperatism". On the whole I think the opinions expressed by the journalists and columnists on both sides of the argument are well reasoned.

However what I find quite shocking and depressing is the horrible tone of the postings on the comments pages where there is very little debate - only name calling - nats, britnats, yoons, etc. and much worse. This issue has generated such strong emotional reaction, and caused such bitter divisions that it is hard to see how our society could ever recover.

The EU referendum has been as divisive and that is certainly reflected in the tone of some posters, even on GN. Theresa May's statement that "people are coming together" does not ring true. I think both these referendums have caused untold damage and I wish I could be more optimistic about our future.

"JEREMY Corbyn’s first big day of the election campaign was undermined after his only MP in Scotland seemingly told voters to back the Tories. According to The Guardian, Ian Murray has begged Tory voters for support in his marginal Edinburgh South seat in exchange for Labour backing Tory candidates standing against SNP MPs.

Murray supposedly told the paper he supported tactical voting to defeat the SNP, but said that meant Tory and LibDem voters had to switch sides, too, if their primary objective was to block the SNP."

mcem My husband and I started our business when we were newly weds over 40 years ago ...we have another we started 20 something years ago .We work long hours ,we employ people .No buckfast in my home either ...a very nice collection of old malts though.I dont understand people who say they and their family struggled during the Thatcher years who look down at people who are struggling now.We all know that depression and alcohol are best friends and often leads to that hopelessness that GP doesn't see and mistakes for laziness.The SNP have done more for Scotland in one decade than Labour did in the 6 or 7 decades before them .Isn't it a shame that these people dont understand that .

So if the 'left behinds' are converted to the cause because they're 'ill-educated poor and despairing' how do you explain the conversion of those at the other end of the spectrum?
Reading, researching, asking questions and getting credible answers? Having a social conscience and supporting eg those struggling with bedroom tax ?
Voting for labour, greens, libdems over the years and finding that none of these
can deliver what we want?
Eventually finding a left-of-centre party who are prepared to take on the challenges to rid us of the appallingly cruel philosophy of the tories and achieve self-determination?
It isn't all about rampant nationalism and that's why reasoned tolerant arguments are welcome whether we do or don't agree with them. That covers the media, the hustings and even Gransnet. It's why I'm happy to read posts from varian but have no respect for the posts of some others.

I have never said that only poor despairing people vote SNP. Obviously others do too, but the left behinds are, it seems, easier to convert to the cause.

It's clear varian that you didn't follow G23 's link or you would have found that many of your points were dealt with.
And please stop insisting that only poor sad despairing people vote SNP.

In areas of post industrial dereliction, long term unemployment breeds despair. Instead of giving the long term unemployed skills to adjust and make their way to a better future, it suits populist parties to foster their sense of grievancd and blame "them"

In the sad Scottish villages grannypiper descfibes, the left behinds can easily be persuaded to vote SNP, in Yorkshire they vote UKIP and in the rust belt of Amefica they vote for Trump.

Nationalism thrives on division and grudge.

This is for Varian, an answer to 'what have the SNP ever done for us.' Beware - it is a very long list. The chap who compiled it swears that all the figures come straight from the Scottish Government Civil Servants:

grousebeater.wordpress.com/2016/04/19/the-snps-achievements/

One thing the Scottish government could have done for the poorly educated, unskilled long term unemployed in areas of post-industrial dereliction, would have been to invest in appropriate skills training in FE colleges, but sadly that sector has not had the investment that it clearly needs.

www.unison-scotland.org/2016/04/19/cuts-to-further-education-must-be-reversed/

Sorry maw - vile stuff that has never seen the inside of my home! Neither has Buckie.
Mine is a large Shiraz please!

maw

Not Buckfast Braveheart mcem, IRN-BRU

So grannypiper and paddyann both live in SW Scotland but have very different experiences. Maybe one balances out the other? Are you hazarding a guess as to where 'G23' is canvassing?
How do you read my posts? A graduate of St A, from a professional background/family, living in a university city and the majority of whose acquaintances will vote SNP again.
Buckfast braveheart?
Far too much generalising and personalising and not enough rational thought.

Just home with DGCs so no time really but to varian - university fees and positive discrimination for students in 'poor' postcodes. Freeze on council tax. Help with bedroom tax for starters. Teatime for wee ones!

"Tolerance is one thing, but it just gets too much day in day out" said nigglynellie.

It shouldn't be necessary to tolerate democratically elected (SNP) MPs. It should be appreciated that they are there of right and have valid points to put forward, just like all the MPs at Westminster.

What do you suggest they should have done but failed to do, varian?

Of course, mcem Tory austerity policies are partly to blame but what has the SNP actually done to help those "left behinds"?

My ref was to nellie's post not piper's.
Sorry to hear of your family's problems. Was that the fault of SNP too?

Sorry having difficulty extricating the meaning of that last post.
Ruk = rest of uk -quite a widely used term.
I didn't say you couldn't have a vote - no need to say that.
I did say that you and your views are not necessarily representative of England as a whole.
No need to personalise a national/international issue.

Granny23 you know nothing of my life and believe me it hasnt always been cosy. I am the Daughter of a steel worker who lost his job in his 40's and a Mother who was a waitress who lost her job 3 days after my Father was made redundant and new jobs could not be found due to the decline of the coal, fishing and steel industry in my town.I grew up on a large council estate.
I was a teenager at the time and could not ask my parents for a new pair of trainers so at the age of 13 i went to work,babysitting every Friday night, waitressing on a Saturday from 8 a.m until 9 p.m and cleaning a pub on a Sunday morning. 80% of what i earned i gave to my Mother.
Yes i may have retired at 45 but i worked between 12 and 18 hours a day, 28 days a month for years. The difference ? I got off my backside. Where you grew up and what money you have makes no difference but if you have no standards and if you are happy to sit on your backside with your hand out then you cant moan.
The snp love these little pit villages as most not all of the people who live their dont want hope they just want dole, they wouldnt want a job for all of the tea in China. They see it has someone else's job to put a roof over their heads, put food in their mouths and to put money in their pockets.You know its true

You're doing it again, niggly. WE don't want to break up the UK.
Who is the WE you are speaking for?

Who or what is Ruk? If you mean the UK I didn't say that YOU said we couldn't have a vote what I said was that it was government policy that the rest of the UK weren't allowed a vote in the Scottish referendum, which is a pity as it affects us all.

varian couldn't your sympathetic supportive remarks be aimed just as accurately at the many deprived areas of England who can't use SNP as thekr scapegoat.
Austerity budget and welfare cuts? Whose responsibility?