English Scots for YES

I think Jane10 has just called me a liar and Grannypiper has branded me and my family and friends as Buckfast swigging Bravehearts, whereas I quite believe that it is true that GrannyP does not know any Independence supporters, nor do I think for one minute that any of my fellow Gransnetters are like the Unionist Orange Order or SDL members who shout abuse and set dogs on our canvassers. In my Central Scotland constituency where I have been canvassing for the SNP for 40+ years there were always enclaves of Tory voters but pragmatically they would vote for the SNP at GEs to try to beat Labour. At that time the SNP were no threat to anyone, winning only a handful of seats, but 1 less Labour MP from Scotland might help the Torys UK wide to gain a majority. Times have changed - now the SNP are regarded as public enemy number one and Labour and Conservatives happily form coalitions to keep the SNP out of power. Indeed both Parties Local Election leaflets are basically saying vote for anyone bar the SNP. and use this election to vote against having another referendum.

Strangely, the issue raised most on the doorsteps was neither Brexit nor Independence but instead the 'Rape Clause' seen as final proof that Tories are completely out of touch with or deliberately turning a blind eye to the ordinary working folk and the vulnerable in society.

Come and do a walkabout or Vox Pop in the High Street of Alloa or Glasgow or Dundee, ask the ordinary folk what they think and if or how they will vote, ask the 16/17 year olds and long established New Scots what they think about being allowed to vote in the local elections but not in the GE or Brexit referendum and LISTEN. Perhaps then you will understand how differently many Scots, who do not live in a comfortable cocoon where their views are constantly reinforced by chats with friends and neighbours in the same bubble and further
confirmed by what they read and see in the unionist MSM.

BTW what is your take on Ruth Davidson's stance on the Rape clause and her ludicrous, off the cuff suggestion that the Scottish Government should pick up the tab for all families with more than two children?

If Scotland were to become independent, the SNP would not automatically be running it.
If Scotland were to become independent there may not be so much money per head of population to spend on essential services.

I didn't call you a liar Granny23 but a dreamer.
Round our way no one at all has a good word to say for SNP. Only 2 areas (Strathclyde and Dundee) voted yes in the referendum the other 36 voted no. I'm guessing where you are canvassing. Spread your net wider and you wont be hearing what you want to hear.

The rape clause is a monumental error on the part of the Tories which has put RD in an impossible position.

Yes *Jane10 but at the GE following the referendum all but 3 Scottish Constituencies returned an SNP MP and although the Press made out that the Scottish Parliament election was somehow or other a victory for the Tories the SNP actually polled more votes than they had ever done before- only the vagaries of the PR system ensured that the Tories had a sizeable contingent of MSPs. This is what the system was designed to do, to ensure that votes for minority parties were not wasted and ensure that these parties were proportionally represented in the Parliament.

If you count all the votes both Constituency and list then the SNP polled 2,013,485 almost double the Tories 1,026,066. That the system works pretty well as regards its PR aim is shown by the eventual total of 63 seats for the SNP and 31 for the Tories.

If a week is a long time in politics then the 2.5 years since the Scottish Referendum is an eternity, during which support for the SNP and their Independence supporting allies the SGP has grown substantially. The forthcoming GE, being a FPTP election may throw up some surprises e.g. Tory wins in the borders and leafy suburbs but I don't think I am dreaming in thinking that the SNP will win a majority of Scottish seats.

Thank you for your suggestion of getting out and about to hear different opinions but in my heyday I travelled all over Scotland to help in various bi-elections and am well aware of regional differences in opinion/voting intention. I'm fairly restricted to the local area nowadays but could show you huge differences between neighbouring villages and even certain streets. Also, I am in regular contact with fellow Nationalists all over Scotland on-line, who are all cautiously reporting a continuing steady swing in our favour (and another surge of people joining the SNP since the GE was called).

Jalima said If Scotland were to become independent there may not be so much money per head of population to spend on essential services.

Equally, with Independence, there would be no expenditure on Trident, Infrastructure projects in the SE of the UK, etc and with all the Tax revenues from Whisky and Oil coming direct to the Scottish Treasury, an overabundance of water, cheap power coming from renewables and the small things such as removal of VAT liability from Police Scotland, there may be more money to
spend on essential services.

well said Granny23 Scotland is a prosperous country with great potential .we are the ONLY part of the UK to have a trade surplus as opposed to Englands 32.4 deficit yet thats something you will never see in the media .We are not and never have been subsidised by westminster ...we pay our share of all their bills ..the deficit is of their making ...not ours .This government who inherited a debt of 800Billion has manged to "pay it down" they tell us to a mere 1 .8 TRILLION ...hardly financial wizards !

I too found the buckfast braveheart remark offensive and uncalled for ,but as they say when people dont have a real arguement they resort to insults .

Paddyann not meant as an insult at all, the highest amount of snp voters in our county live in the ex pit villages where the majority of under 30 year olds have never had a job and where strangely enough they have the highest sales of buckfast. These are the same villages where anyone from south of the border is called an English c--t and they all fly the snp flag because they hate the English. If you dont believe these villages exist then you dont know S.W Scotland at all.

Sad but true

Do you mean Buckfast Tonic Wine, made by the sedate monks of Buckfast Abbey?
We have a bottle in the sideboard bought in the Abbey shop , I had no idea it was a drink of choice in Scotland.

OH Dear Grannypiper you are incorrigible Does it never cross your mind why such villages, (and housing schemes full of redundant former shipbuilders) robbed of their very raison d'etre by Maggie Thatcher (though I think Arthur Scargill's ego was also to blame), then left to rot with no inward investment from the all pervasive Labour Government and Local Authorities, see their only hope in becoming Independent? They have nothing to lose by taking that chance - no investments, no secure jobs, perhaps a zero hours contract, no investments to protect and Gordon Brown told them they would even lose their right to state pensions if Scotland broke free. What has your precious Union every done for these people? Collateral damage to the Tories, voting fodder for Labour. The SNP offers HOPE of something better, if not immediately then for their children.

What would you do to counter this gross inequality starkly present in a rich country? Probably nothing other than look down your nose at the people trapped there who are such a blot on the landscape of your beautiful Borders. Maybe you agree with the Tory MP who recently suggested a return to shipping Scots away as slaves as an answer to the 'Scottish Problem'.

Anyway, one of the first lessons I learnt when canvassing is that you do not waste time on the doorstep of an intransigent, 'I made up my mind when I was 21 and have never thought about it since' voter who quotes Daily Express headlines as fact. You simply thank them politely, record them as no and move on to the next, perhaps more interested household.

So, Thank you for your time Grannypiper, I'll let you get back into your cosy house and self satisfied life.

F. goodness S, Why don't you have your referendum and just buzz off. TBH, the rest of us would heave a sigh of relief not to have to listen to NS, and particularly her MSP's at Westminster. Tolerance is one thing, but it just gets too much day in day out, so ' In the name of God Go'! The sooner he better!

Why so irate nellie over 2 Scots having a conversation about the attitudes of their fellow countryfolk?
Plenty more on GN if you don't like the tone of this thread. Given the title of the thread I can't see why you ever entered the fray.

Ps - enjoyed your reference to tolerance!!

Noooo nellie most of us don't want to leave the union and just want rid of the useless but noisy SNP. Don't tar us with the same brush!

Don't think the average broad-minded tolerant resident of England would choose to be tarred with nellie 's brush either. 'The rest of us'?? Have you a mandate to speak for the whole of England?

I know Jane10 ,I hear what you say and its nothing personal, but if it were the other way round I think you would possibly be feeling the same?!!
mcem, why do you thinking that the rest of the UK isn't allowed to have a say on Scottish independence? after all it affects us all. The result for leave would almost certainly be overwhelming, particularly as it would mean bye bye Nicola.

nigglynellie then can you explain exactly WHY westminster is so desperate to hang onto us?grannypiper I live in SW Scotland and I dont recognise your village scenario.I do recognise the fact that many folk who move here from "down south" think they are superior and want everything to be done their way ...and that arrogance often causes issues...they behave in the same manner as the ex pats in Spain who have little Englands and think the spanish are foreigners .I know a couple of these personally and they are lovely people ...in the main but they think Scotland is PART of England ...and its not .Thankfully my friends from all corners of the UK and the world who live in the village are not like that ..most are supporters of Independence and and the few who aren't can see the reasoning behind it .Smug ,self satisfaction ..or the I'm all right Jack brigade should of course think they are lucky to have no employment issues etc ...BUT no one is immune so lets hope you dont get knocked off your perch any time soon and find out the hard way whats its like at the bottom of the pile .Though it might teach you not to be offensive and have some compassion for those less fortunate than you !

Well said nigglynellie I'm sick of the SNP and Sturgeon I think they are an embarrassment to Scotland, the Commons and themselves.

I think what mcem was saying is that you do not speak for "the rest of us", niggly.
The rest of us can have different opinions to yours.

I disagree, ninny. I think the SNP spokespeople are eminently sensible.

I really enjoy listening to Angus Robertson putting May in her place.

We have to sympathise with those under thirty who are long-term unemployed living in the dismal Scottish villages Grannypiper describes.

These poor souls have lived most of their adult lives under a totally incompetent SNP administration.

Has their misery and lack of political awareness allowed them to be exploited by the very party which has abandoned them. It is so much easier to blame England/Westminster than get the nationalists to take responsibility and actually help them.

niggly where did I say that Ruk 'isn't allowed to have a say' ?
What I am saying is that you as an individual can't speak for all your countrymen. I'm sure those who are tolerant and who probably are the majority would no more accept you as their spokesman tnan I would.

Bottom line, is that WE don't want to break up the union, but if the SNP are determined to do it, then quite frankly maybe it's for the best and we can all have a bit of peace.
Why don't your comments surprise me dj?! What does surprise me is why you don't go and live in this land of milk and honey?!! What's stopping you?!