Guards on trains

Trisher your dismissive summary of what looks to me like a very thorough review of the safety aspects of driver only trains hardly does it justice. In any event, I'll say for the third time that better use of existing staff is what is needed to deal with issues like the one you mention. There are guards all over the system doing unnecessary jobs and gaps elsewhere where more staff are needed. The unions should be negotiating with that in mind if they are really concerned about safety. It's currently all about jobs.

Are we talking about guards travelling on the train, or guards who blow the whistle on the platform so that the driver knows it is safe to leave.

I thought we were talking about the first, but having googled earlier this evening, it looked to be more or totally about the second.

And there are different sorts of train journies.

There are ones where the train stops at train stations every 5 minutes. And ones where the next station is not for 45 minutes and the next one 20 minutes after that.

Is this meant to be something people are not aware of?

Ankers the issues may not be exactly the same with every rail company (I've not looked at them all) but on southern it's essentially about who is responsible for closing the train doors. This link is quite helpful.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-37752660

I am not sure now if that was the link I read earlier Fitzy, I dont think it was. But yes, the one I read was about guards closing doors.

Which does not seem to be what some posters were posting about above, myself included.

I also think some posters may be talking about Southern Rail, or Southern Rail in particular, when others may not be, again myself included.

I want to feel safe when I am on a platform and when I am travelling on a train.

If there are no railway staff around on platforms/ ticket offices/on trains who is reponsible for monitoring the safety of passengers? The driver is , of course, as he is responsible for geting the train from A to B safely.but he cannot deal with passengers. And who would give myDGS a blank ticket when we travel? it is all about human contact.

I was on the train directly behind the crash just outside Clapham Junction in 1988. It was a worrying time for everyone on the train and we were not in any danger but having railway guards was helpful and calming.

I have a photo of my local station in about 1920 (we live in the stationmaster's house) and there is the stationmaster and 10 other employees. We live in a small Surrey town which then would have been a separate village (we have merged!) & now it has a high commuter rate as we are on the Waterloo/Portsmouth line. We now only have one person at the station 6:30 until 12:30 p.m!
No wonder unemployment is a problem. I bet many of the lads in the photo all left school at 12/14 with a basic education. but they had a job and some self respect.

So does that mean you would/will/do refuse to travel on Driver Only Trains that are running in the UK already?

The rail companies are not saying staffing should reduce, simply that the guards move to a more flexible role. So Pen, they would have more time to do things like give your DGS a blank ticket. Very important job! The unions don't believe that the companies will really retain staffing levels. That, I agree, must be a danger. The unions should be more flexible, but definitely need cast iron guarantees on staffing levels.

i live in a town that is served by a Southern service. Every single commuter will tell you that the impact of the strikes is as nothing compared to the day to day disgrace that is Southern's sorry excuse for a train service. Southern has more cancellations than any other service ( not counting any trains lost through strikes). The reason is the useless company that runs Southern and the terms of the franchise whereby Southern pick up the government money to run the service and the Government get the revenue from ticket sales - ergo, why should Southern care if revenue falls through cancellations and refunds or because we use another line if one is available? It's madness I say madness.

As for driver only - there are huge huge differences between different types of train routes and services. Certainly down here, trains are getting longer - Waterloo Station is having half its platforms lengthened in the summer to be able to accommodate even longer commuter trains - the safety issues at especially commuter times are huge - there is a real issue for example, at Clapham Junction now with only 10 carriage trains and the curve of the platform making visibility for the driver already problematic without a guard/conductor. If you don't commute on over crowded trains, you have absolutely no idea of the safety issues posed by driver only trains. And that's before we even start on the impact this will have on disabled passengers needing assistance which at the moment guards regularly provide - and have had to do increasingly as more and more stations have no staff outside of key hours. But hey why let the facts get in the way of government propaganda and a good rant at the unions?

POGS yes it might! I believe in putting my actions where my mouth is!! That is why I believe in boycotting goods/shops/ companies etc. if I disagree with their practices. Politics are personal to me. It costs me a lot!

Good post Rigby46.

As for driver only - there are huge huge differences between different types of train routes and services

A small, say 5 small carriage train that stops every 5 minutes is in not so much need of a guard[whether on the platform or on the train], as a many carriage train which has a buffet car, and does 30 or 40 minutes at least between stations. It may also run late into the evening at at night.

Which is a different type of train and route to a heavily used commuter one.

and at night

Ankers, that is my point, and the one Rigby chooses to ignore. A simple one size fits all doesn't work, so the unions need to be flexible in working practices, and abandon 100% DOT for something that puts staff where they are most needed, and doing the jobs they are most needed for.

I live in Merseyrail territory where we currently have 3 or 6 car trains depending on the time. We have guards at the moment who open and close doors as well keeping a look out for "bad" behavior. True bad behavior is not often an issue but when it is the guard is essential as the driver has to concentrate driving the train. For passenger safety reasons alone there must be a guard and a driver on most trains, how is a driver on his own expected to cope with emergencies when no back up is nearby.

London Underground, London Overground and Docklands Light Railway run without guards (DLR without drivers as well). Why can't the Merseyrail drivers operate the doors? "True bad behaviour" is probably as frequent in London as in Liverpool,but we get by.

Doors are automatic on LU, LO. Dont know about Dockldands.
They are not automatic on some other types of train journies.

I dont know if there is a "mind the gap" problem on London Underground and Overground, I cant remember.
But there certainly is on some other routes.

There was a bad incident[person taken to hospital] who fell or partly fell through the gap, and train obviously delayed on a route I travel on. Guards were around.

Why is the closing of train doors by a guard such an issue when the tube manages fine without?

X post Ankers and grumppa.

I agree grumppa. One guard on a train would be pretty in effective at dealing with bad behaviour anyway. Of course we see all sorts of things on the tube .... drunks, swearing, racial abuse, collapses etc. ....... and we get by. Help is available at each stop and usually commuters are pretty pro active at jumping in to help. People who think the presence of a guard will keep everyone safe are deluded.

The tube stops about every 2 minutes, with help at each stop.
That is really a total different scenario to some other train journeys.

But I havent looked up which specific train journeys are being talked about.

I still think it is interesting that people prefer to believe the statistics and report produced by what would once have been known as a government quango rather than listen to the people who are working and have real life experience. Statistics will be completely changed in the event of a serious accident only then I suppose will people realise and say the government should have listened to the staff involved.

I don't use the Tube so I can't comment on that but I know that the guard/ conductor on my commuter trains is checking for safety at each station on 10 carriage overcrowded trains with people fighting to get on and off at stations. I also know that out of commuter hours at unstaffed stations the guards help with ramps and wheelchairs

But Trisher, the staff are fighting to keep their jobs , neither side is without self interest