Attempted murder in Croydon

Well, I did say that it is easy to generalise and I agree with Anya that it is too easy a generalisation, but I think it is pretty well recognised that the Brexit result enabled some people, and I do mean just a few, to openly express views that were formerly considered non PC. However, whatever the motive, I hope these vile people are caught and brought to justice.

Police are still looking for 3 people. Hope they get them.

I've just come back to the thread. Anya I'm not making political capital. I actually wrote that this wasn't directly linked to Brexit. I have never claimed all Leave voters were racist, so Cunco's defence was unnecessary.

However, I do think the "Breaking Point" posters were racist and they were financed by Arron Banks, who is racist and mocks asylum seekers, so there is a link. He actually mocked some anti-racist graffiti which appeared at the spot where the attack took place.

This teenager was attacked because he was a random asylum seeker. It doesn't matter about the context. It was a racist attack. I'm glad that attacks have now reduced.

I think we should agree that ALL murder is dreadful, whatever the motive.
If racists crimes have increased after the referendum, then the responsibility for those crimes lies entirely with the perpetrators and not with people who made a legitimate choice to vote to leave the EU. And no, voting for Brexit did not give anyone encouragement to commit crimes, the offenders made these choices themselves, the responsibility is theirs alone.
I hope the boys who attacked this young man and the person/persons who killed the Polish man are caught and dealt with accordingly. I also hope whoever murdered the mother and her son in their own home is caught and dealt with appropriately.

The people who killed the Polish man have been caught and are being tried for manslaughter. The trial was postponed and is currently sub judice.

maddyone Do you think ISIS has no responsibility for terrorists and that they alone are responsible for their own actions?

Thsnk yu DD, I must have missed that, only just got back from a trip abroad.

we had racist attacks long before Britex, have you forgotten Stephen Lawrence

I think terrorists are responsible for the crimes they commit, and people who are members of ISIS are responsible for the crimes they commit. An organisation cannot be tried (though being a member of an illegal organisation can be a crime) but a person who commits a crime can be tried. I believe each person is responsible for their own acts, whether good or evil. People can be influenced by outside events but they alone are responsible for what they do.

Please don't blame Brexit for everything! There has always been violence perpetrated by racists and others.

Sadly, this kind of violence is nothing new!

Quite right libra 10 and Arry.

Daphne: My comment was not a 'defence'; it was not directly prompted by your comment; and it was necessary, at least for me, because I believed it needed to be said.

Nobody, whether they voted Remain or Leave, should relate Brexit directly with racism. It is untrue whatever was said in a pretty shabby campaign by both sides nine months ago. Associating Brexit with racism could, in my view, provide an excuse, or even an endorsement for the small minority that commit racist crimes. It also serves to marginalise the main reasons why people voted Leave.

There has always been racism in this country , since Brexit some seem to think racism is new, it is not, difference is the police are finally accepting it exists.

I live in Croydon - I chose to move here partly because I enjoy the "multi-cultural" atmosphere. I find the fact that I'm surrounded by people of different races, with different cultural norms, speaking different languages, is stimulating rather than oppressive.

In certain areas there are problems with gangs, as in other cities, but if the reporting so far has been accurate I don't think this crime is a result of gang warfare - it is inspired by racism. Generally Croydon is an example of how different races can live & work together in harmony. If the young asylum speaker "is re settled somewhere in England other than Croydon" as Terri suggests above, he may well face far more prejudice - among my acquaintances at least, it tends to be the people who live in rural areas who are vehemently anti-immigrants.

Racism ? I don't believe has increased due to BREXIT, people may feel more sensitive than they did prior to the vote and police more ready to designate a crime as racially aggravated, but that is all.

We have to think more critically about reports of crimes, racism is horrible, but that doesn't translate to anything useful unless we know the target and culprits, and can make a connection that holds water. Racist in the way it is reported suggests a one way clash but it is far more sophosticated and long since ceased to be white / black issue.

We have seen a large influx of young men from different cultures whose ways of estabishing themselves are often violent and intimidating. The drug dealers from various places have flooded in and don't care very much what they do to establish their businesses.

I remember 25 years ago when I moved to North Wales, no insurance company would insure my cottage unless I lived in it, as the cottages used by English as holiday homes were being burnt down.

I was often told to 'go home and could not find work for ages, and when I did, was frequently told 'that job is one a Welsh person could have had and a Welsh man too'. There was no one to complain to about any of that the police would have laughed at me.

We have invented categories for admnistration purposes and we just fill them up.

In the 80's when I worked throughout the Brixto riots our statistics were based on, all non white being black, which came as a surprise to Chinese people, Turkish, and even the children of mixed race who used our youth club.

I think racism abhorent, but to pretend that we know anything about it from recorded incidents is a bit naive.

We are facing the perfectly natural jostling for poisition, among new groups of young men, many of whom are violent, are unable to be
identified and are here to establish themselves. They can in effect do as they please.

The money involved in crimes like drugs, sex trade, and cyber crime is fantastic, why can blame them for seizing the opportunities.

To pretend that BREXIT is anything to do with this is just ridiculous.

Good post radicalnan

I would like to second that - well said radicalnan

I will third it, well said radicalnan

Any fourths?

I remember in an English pub being asked if my partner and j would eat our meal in a side room and not in the dining area, my partner was black. Was in Morefield eye hospital on a St Davids Day wearing my Daff. A loud voice was heard - why should they use our hospitals.

Radicalan is mistaken, there has been English holidays homes in Wales before 1992 and since 1992, insured naturally. And in defence of the Welsh, many of us are sick of the English home buyers who complain that Welsh is spoken in Wales , even complain that a church service is in Welsh and Welsh lessons are compulsory in Welsh schools

I agree with Rosina how can people stand by? But how things have changed. Over 20 years ago I was driving my daughter to a school meeting and in the middle of the road was a large gang of teenage boys kicking something on the ground. We jumped out of the car and ran over. Lying on the ground was a young man.
I crumpled up my coat and held his head on my lap whilst my daughter knocked at doors to get help. While we waited for ambulance and police, blood poured from the mouth of the young man on to my white coat and in to his long fair hair. His eyes and face swelled as I comforted him.
The ambulance personnel took him off and we waited for police but had to phone them again.
A very portly older police officer eventually arrived but after he realised the victim had gone to hospital he left without writing down any details.
The young man lived near us and we heard that he had extensive dental work to repair damage.
We were never interviewed and his parents didn't contact us. It hasn't stopped me or my family from tackling any injustices we see...and there have been a few!

Antonia You have twice said that it is too easy to generalise and on both occasions have gone on to do it.

This young refugee deserves better of us than to be used for political capital.

I don't know anyone who voted Leave who is not horrified by this or who is racist or excuses racism.

radicalnan My family emigrated to Canada when I was 14. At my very first interview at 17 I was asked 'why should we give you a job when there are Canadians out of work?' I think he only interviewed me to make his point. As soon as I got a job I started saving to return to the UK. Bigotry is everywhere and has existed throughout time. We all need to fight it but that isn't done by falsely accusing 17+ million people who voted Leave as being racist (which many people will do) and not analysing and dealing with the real reasons.

It is perfectly natural for people to want to look after their own. Currently we are ruled by rather left wing, social worker type agendas but if we look more towards other disciplines, like anthropology different points of view emerge. Our preceived wisdom at the moment is that we can all integrate which would be lovely.

I lived in North Wales for 10 years 1987 onwards and was treated like an interloper, fair enough, no one invited me there, we moved house once to avoid a neighbour who thought we should not be encouraged to settle. It was uncomfortable at times but understandable. My son still lives there with his 4 fabulous daughters having done a lttle integration of his own.

We could not insure the cottage unless we lived there full time and so moved on the very day that my daughter was born, in fact she was deliered at Ysbyty Gwynedd.

I grew up in post war Peckham, with plenty of new neighbours from the Commonwealth, who were shabbily treated, not by my family, dad was a jazz muscian and music seems to bridge all barriers.

When I was a youth worker in the late 70's and 80s in London the African people and Carribean people did not get on, although the riots were perceived as a white/ black issue.

Racism is far, far more complex than statistics alone can deal with.

It takes time for people to assimilate and maybe they don't want to. That is fine too. How we cope with that when we are a small island and people don't have much space or a surfeit of opportunities remains to be seen, and seen the world over.

People will gravitate towards wherever they think they can do better for themselves, poor economic migrants come here for the money to be made, sadly gang type enterprisess make the most money, quickly. However, in Wales the language was used to prevent people having local jobs, Welsh speakers only policy, which resulted in some bizarre appointments..a hairdresser in a senior social work post because she spoke Welsh and other applicants didn't.

There are always little attempts at social engineering, all pefectly natural, why shouldn't people protect what matters to them?

The tragedy in Croydon, who knows what that was about? We can't just assume racism or any other ism. There are undercurrents that only the people who love locally may be aware of.

Since BREXIT I have been told more than once that as an 'old person I should be dead so I don't need a pension.........can't see people taking to the streets about ageism, or fatism (guilty of that too) consider carefully how we are all being manipulated, why have these categories sprung up? Is a racist murder any different to any other murder? I don't believe it is.